Thread: Olympian weapons vs demon UE FLB

I think a thunder gun grid is pretty good overall in the long run. My dream thunder grid is 2 Mammon guns, Phantom gun, 3 Olympian guns, 2 Marduk hammer, and 1 Raiko hammer with the meta thunder himes. With vigoras in it's own bracket, you can pretty consistently hit cap amounts of damage using a 5 vigoras weapons grid. In my calculations, it's actually very very difficult to hit the 350k cap with just assault and elemental multipliers alone. You could, in theory, do it with double MLB nid, thunder aphro's vigoras buff, kaiser buff, a whole bunch of raiko hammers, and a glass cannon hammer grid. But it's mathematically a lot easier if you make your vigoras multiplier bigger since you're getting significant diminishing returns from assault in that hammer grid.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

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Let's look at Wind:

Frankly, wind got the best draw. All weapons are insanely good. Your best bet is to make a phantom glaive grid, 5 guardian glaives, 3 guardian bows, and 2 guardian arcanes. That's a total of 149% assault, 40% defender, 90% exceed, 31% vigor and 54% ascension. Base assault is 226% assault with decent defender, exceed and healing. You are a bit of a glass cannon as you have no pride weapons in that mix... though those old union swords are pride, exceed. But the beauty here is that this grid is totally F2P, rivals the best you had earlier and abuses triple skill weapons substantially.

Add on the Wind Guardian and you have a team that rocks and is totally F2P. Ticketing 1 or 2 Himes (Azzy, CuChu) is all that's needed. And you don't need old weapons either!!

And what, exactly, do you do with with Ascension in Wind...? You're rather unlikely to run Set. You might run Frigg, but you didn't recommend her through MTs. Looks like an entirely wasted stat to me.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

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2) It's theorycrafting... it's supposed to be 'Field of Dreams' like; go big or go home! --

While I don't entirely disagree with that - please root your dreams at least somewhat into reality. There are very, very few players on the Nutaku who are going to farm that ludicrous amounts of the Olympia raids - specifically, when farming all of them. Hell, at some points you even mention farming multiple different weapons. Technically not much of an issue if you only want one one MLB of those (just buying one per month is reaaaaally cheap!) buuuuut... you sure make it sound like that's going to be an easy to get, immediate thing.

If you plan to farm one element exclusively, then it becomes far, far more feasible. However, that hasn't really been the premise on these forums for over a year now, so please mention that if that is your plan.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

3) You don't need to have this all right now. As someone smart told me once (you Slashley!!), Kamihime is a marathon, not a sprint. --

I keep saying that because I agree with those words, but I would like to clarify that those are VERYVOODOO's words. At least I think he came up with them... don't know if he copied them from somewhere else.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

4) A 0LB dual assault type guardian weapon (assault/vigor or assault/pride) at full skill is better than a FLB single assault skill weapon at full skill. The base stats, while helpful, aren't where you're getting your power from. It's just like a 0LB sl 20 SSR assault weapon is better than a MLB sl 20 SR assault weapon. That 3% makes all the difference. Does it help having it limited break? Hell yes. But you can use it a zero level just fine.

So, you're saying that a 0-Star Grid of a non-Assault Phantom weapon is a good idea? I'd love to see real numbers from that experiment. My calc exists if you want to run the numbers.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

6) Dreamlitz and I have talked about (and shown graphs) about how to combine vigor/pride weapons to mitigate the overall loss in assault power you get when you lose hitpoints. Without other sources you should have 2 pride weapons for every vigor weapon in your grid to maintain an assault advantage at high hitpoints (85%+) and also at low hitpoints (60% or less). In between you suffer a small 5% loss in assault power. Once again, please look at those graphs I did and digest them so that you understand what you're criticizing. You don't understand the value of vigor that these weapons give to players (new or old).

I don't remember seeing such graphs, but they sound like they have a faulty premise. Effectively, you're relying on either wasting one portion of your Grid at high health, or relying on wasting an other portion of your Grid when at low health. Without presenting alternatives - such as non-Pride Assault with Vigor or full Assault/Pride at low HP - you don't have a proper graph.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

1. There are sources of ascension that raises the healing cap but not the % healed, such as Sol AW's 3rd ability that makes the break point higher than at first glance.

Oh? What other sources? Outside of the mentioned Awakened Sol, I can only think of Andromeda's Soul weapon burst effect.
And by the way, Awakened Sol's 3rd ability gives two buffs. One for more Healing power (overall entirely wasted due to the cap) and one to increase cap. Sooo that one doesn't really count for increasing the break point, if there's any kind of argument to be had there.

Originally Posted by Slashley

And what, exactly, do you do with with Ascension in Wind...? You're rather unlikely to run Set. You might run Frigg, but you didn't recommend her through MTs. Looks like an entirely wasted stat to me.

... I don't know why you must make ascension sound like one of the worst skills ever, but saying that it is a useless stat for wind? There is Azazel AW and she is definitely MT-worthy and has team-wide 300 energy drain and 500 regen - ascension works on both. With all the DATA buffs you get from wind, you should think of it as the higher end of 300-900 energy drain and 500 regen on 5/7T CD. The main flaw I see is that taco may never give Azzy AW to us...

There are very, very few players on the Nutaku who are going to farm that ludicrous amounts of the Olympia raids - specifically, when farming all of them.

Didn't want to wade into this part of the debate, but I can't help but think that you're implicitly assuming that players don't get better over time - when I first started, I had to manual advent experts - not even ultimates, experts, now all events are AAB material for me. Early on, I tried to do LUlt, which took me over twenty minutes to clear, with help, not even solo. It seemed crazy to me at the time that I was expected to farm these hundreds or even thousands of times. But then slowly, my grid got better, and now I just AAB every ult and I go manual LRags instead. I presume it'll be the same with Olympia raids - you get better over time and what used to be incredibly time-consuming grind becomes easier and faster.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

6) Dreamlitz and I have talked about (and shown graphs) about how to combine vigor/pride weapons to mitigate the overall loss in assault power you get when you lose hitpoints. Without other sources you should have 2 pride weapons for every vigor weapon in your grid to maintain an assault advantage at high hitpoints (85%+) and also at low hitpoints (60% or less). In between you suffer a small 5% loss in assault power. Once again, please look at those graphs I did and digest them so that you understand what you're criticizing. You don't understand the value of vigor that these weapons give to players (new or old).

I only remember doing this with Abou, who had special atk that scaled like pride. I forgot the exact details, but I did find a build where Abou + some amount of vigor (I think it's just 1 SR replacing 1 SR disaster hammer) suffers at most a few % loss in dmg relative to St. Nick or Barong, but retains a lot of the upside at low HP.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Oh? What other sources? Outside of the mentioned Awakened Sol, I can only think of Andromeda's Soul weapon burst effect. And by the way, Awakened Sol's 3rd ability gives two buffs. One for more Healing power (overall entirely wasted due to the cap) and one to increase cap.

You are right, Sol AW's ability buffs both, so that wasn't a good example. But other than Andro's weapon, there's also Andro/Cassio/Vivian master bonus, soul energy release, Dian passive (small but it's there), Lugh passive and Berith passive. I was also gonna throw in accessories and Shamash's 3rd ability, but I'm not sure if those buff just the cap or both or not.

Sooo that one doesn't really count for increasing the break point, if there's any kind of argument to be had there.

I've already pointed out that ascension tends to raise not lower the break point and also given you multiple examples of where the break point is binding, so I'm just going to reiterate:

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

If you don't have Atum, don't turtle or don't even use ascension, just ignore this information.

Also, amended my original post:

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

If you notice any typos or numerical errors, let me know and I will correct them. All other suggestions such as layout and color scheme EDIT: and how or what information is presented will be ignored - if you dislike both JStar's and my layout, go make your own please.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

I only remember doing this with Abou, who had special atk that scaled like pride. I forgot the exact details, but I did find a build where Abou + some amount of vigor (I think it's just 1 SR replacing 1 SR disaster hammer) suffers at most a few % loss in dmg relative to St. Nick or Barong, but retains a lot of the upside at low HP.

I apologize; I must have posted it in discord in discussions with div about potential capabilities. I'll repost (slightly hijack) in your thread here so that it's located at the point of question.

The graph is for assault (y-axis) over hitpoints (x-axis). The range of hit points is 100 to 0 and the range of assault is 5.4 to 3. The red line is a full FLB assault grid. I phantom weapon and 9 assault Large (21%) weapons. The green line is a shamash phantom weapon grid. Shamash adds pride on FLB to assault medium (5 weapons to make the phantom grid work). The blue line is the vishnu wheel grid (5 weapons plus a phantom glaive). It shows the potential for a vigor grid. The black line is a combo grid where you now use 3 shamash books and 2 vishnu glaives to balance out the loss/gain from both over the range of hitpoints. You're gains are 'smoothed' out over the range of hitpoints and show the potential for a mixed weapon set grid. It emphasizes the ability of pairing vigor/pride to keep your assault gain above just the best single assault grid. The second set of graphs show a set of pride and/or vigor weapons replacing an assault weapon of similar caliber. This is harder to work with (and that'll show in the graph) and that there is now no obvious 'winner' as they are straight trade off weapons, but combining pride and vigor together mitigates either skills disadvantages. This allows someone to populate weapons with pride and vigor into their grid as substitutes for a pure assault grid as temporary replacements for the triple weapon skills that are available later on.

The triple skill weapons from the Guardian raids will not be good as the vishnu/glaive combos (Hime weapons) as they lack FLB, but they won't be as bad as the second set where you're replacing assault with either vigor or pride. They'll definitely be better, but it won't be the same level of overpower as vishnu glaives/shamash books or mammon guns (etc.) that Hime weapons can achieve.

Enjoy!!


Dejnov.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

... I don't know why you must make ascension sound like one of the worst skills ever, --

That (questionable) honor belongs to Elaborate, hands down.

That doesn't mean that Ascension is particularly good, though. I touched upon this in another thread lately, but to expand, here are requirements to make Ascension be a worthy stat:
1. You need to have Hime(s) who can make use out of it. Technically everyone has Andro, but then you run into:
2. You need to build a team with that/those specific Hime, without making your team suck.
3. Content needs to be the sort where having Heals makes a difference, ie. not a joke in difficulty for you (since if it is too easy, then you're just wasting Grid budget on something that does nothing for you). This might not be a big point since it's easy content that you clear anyway, why does it matter? The answer here is time taken.
4. Content needs to be healable (unlike say current Light Rag or AQ5 last boss).

ALL FOUR are required to make Ascension into a good stat. #1 is pure RNG (outside of MTs), #2 will probably need synergies (such as Thunder Aphro-Dian), and even if you clear those hurdles... #3 and #4 will constantly fluctuate, meaning that your hard work can go straight down the drain just because the content has changed. What should be noted is that I think DMM currently has like... five teams per element now? So building highly specialized teams will stop being an issue. Even after 6x Farming builds and 6x Burst Hour builds, you still have a whopping 18 highly specialized teams left, and I think you can even give them names so that you won't forget just what exact niche that team fills. At least, I hope that's a thing.
Patch notes-kun where are you...

Anyway. These four things make me veeeery iffy towards Ascension. Do I love my Light Grid that I use to heal Dark Rags? Yes. But that just means that #3 and #4 are currently just right, which might not be the case one week from now (Dark Olympia coming out). And, even though my Light Grid does great things, it outright prevents me from ever MVPing Dark Rag. With great Heals comes a great price, I guess I could say.
Though my lack of proper team certainly doesn't help. AAB Frey carry against content that doesn't really Rage is obviously not very ideal.


tl;dr; Is it possible to make Ascension into a good stat? Yes, yes it is. Is it as easy as just slapping some Ascension weapons in your Grid? Hell no it is not. Just like with Vigor, have a fucking plan.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

-- but saying that it is a useless stat for wind? There is Azazel AW and she is definitely MT-worthy and has team-wide 300 energy drain and 500 regen - ascension works on both.--

Ah, shit. You're right, I should've remembered the one-(wo)man Wind core. Yeah, no problem with Ascension there, Azazel clears problems #1 and #2 easily.

I'm uh, willing to blame Nutaku for withholding Azazel Awakening for my derp there if you are?

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Didn't want to wade into this part of the debate, but I can't help but think that you're implicitly assuming that players don't get better over time --

I don't understand when I ever said anything about that?

The problem here isn't carrying Olympia raids - it's about outright time. Assuming Olympia are Rag-ish (and by that I mean, clear in about 10 minutes and drop 0.5 Globes), by leeching three raids at the same time you can earn 1.5 Globes per 10 minutes. This makes one Globe cost you ~6 minutes. Dejnov is making it sound like gathering up for 175 Globes on a monthly basis is easy, but that's ~19.5 hours per month. Now, that's perfectly manageable, being just ~40 minutes per day (of doing absolutely nothing else but farming Olympias). But, as we get more of them, you're gonna be farming multiple elements. Four elements are already ~78 hours a month, ~2.5 hours per day - EVERY day. Plus doing all the other stuff you're "expected" to run in Kamihime, like farming T2 Cores, Regalias, GO and AQs. That gets pretty rough, pretty fast.

Realistically speaking, you're going to be farming one weapon during the first rush of each element. Maybe two. But thinking about Grids with 5+ of the same Olympia weapon will effectively require you to drop other elements. And I think that should certainly be part of the discussion - root your expectations in reality.

And then there are people like Voodoo who will probably farm one MLB of each of the weapons per month until they have like eight of each - just because they can. But chances are pretty high anyone who is reading this is NOT one of those people.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

You are right, Sol AW's ability buffs both, so that wasn't a good example. But other than Andro's weapon, there's also Andro/Cassio/Vivian master bonus, soul energy release, Dian passive (small but it's there), Lugh passive and Berith passive. I was also gonna throw in accessories and Shamash's 3rd ability, but I'm not sure if those buff just the cap or both or not.

Yes, everything should go into the same 200% cap - that should be a hard cap that encompasses all methods. I don't have Berith or Lugh to test those, though.

By the way, Andromeda's passive and Master Bonus are a complete mystery to me. They certainly don't have any effect on the healing cap. Simple proof, Andromeda heals 1600 by default and hard caps at 4800. 1600 * 3 = 4800. If Andromeda healed for 1500 by default with her passive and/or Master Bonus bringing it to 1600, then the Heal should cap at 4500...
So, the entire Master Bonus and that passive are entirely wasted. What a shame.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

All other suggestions such as layout and color scheme EDIT: and how or what information is presented will be ignored --

Question.

If you have zero interest in feedback, criticism and discussion, why even post this thing on these public forums? Wouldn't it be more in line to just post to some Discord buddygroup and be happy in that social bubble?

Originally Posted by Slashley

I'm uh, willing to blame Nutaku for withholding Azazel Awakening for my derp there if you are?

I don't disagree with your points about ascension being largely situational, I was just annoyed at the comment about it being useless for wind, but it didn't seem to be intentional, so my bad for overreacting. Taco with their original game nonsense...

Realistically speaking, you're going to be farming one weapon during the first rush of each element. Maybe two. But thinking about Grids with 5+ of the same Olympia weapon will effectively require you to drop other elements. And I think that should certainly be part of the discussion - root your expectations in reality.

I agree if you want 5+ of the same weapon in like 5-6 months, it will be pretty rough unless you neglect other stuff (or unless your union is so strong that you squish these things in a few minutes.) If you don't mind waiting though, you can stockpile your globes and just buy like 2 copies per month for almost half the cost (100 globes total for a full MLB vs. 175 for 4 copies per month.) It'll take you twice as long to get there, but yeah, it's a tradeoff, this game seems to punish you whenever you want to rush. Maybe that's not what Dejnov meant by marathon, I'll let him speak for himself, but just wanted to point out that that is an option.

Yes, everything should go into the same 200% cap - that should be a hard cap that encompasses all methods. I don't have Berith or Lugh to test those, though.

Actually, since I mentioned Lugh, I guess I should make sure ppl are aware that Lugh's passive technically isn't the same as regular ascension but a separate multiplier - if you stack up to 200% ascension on your grid and you put normal series accessories on her, it heals for 2100 not 1050 - i.e. it's 350 * (1 + 200% ascension) * (1 + 100% Lugh passive) = 2100, not 350 * (1 + min(200%, 200% ascension + 100% passive)) = 1050. Full disclosure - I was not the tester of this, but I have seen the screenshot of the test, and I have seen normal series heal more than 1050 on my Lugh before so it's consistent with my experience.

I haven't tested Berith, not sure if she's the same.

By the way, Andromeda's passive and Master Bonus are a complete mystery to me. They certainly don't have any effect on the healing cap. Simple proof, Andromeda heals 1600 by default and hard caps at 4800. 1600 * 3 = 4800. If Andromeda healed for 1500 by default with her passive and/or Master Bonus bringing it to 1600, then the Heal should cap at 4500...
So, the entire Master Bonus and that passive are entirely wasted. What a shame.

Hmm, you're right, I think I misunderstood what the master bonus is supposed to do then. Energy release raises the cap though, at least it did the last time I tested it, which admittedly was many many months ago.

Also, for those who are interested in Atum's heal, I just tested last night that Atum's heal is indeed only 20% with 3000 cap - so you need 15k hp to take full advantage of it. Also, it appears that heal accessories raises both the cap and heal % and will work really well for Atum, 'cos with like just two +5% heal, you're at 30% heal with 3300 cap, so the breakpoint drops to 11k whereas normal ascension weapons actually raises the breakpoint. This is important if you use Atum to heal Lugh as Lugh's passive does not seem to circumvent the heal % - very very niche situation pertinent to two specific SSRs, please just ignore if you don't have or don't plan to get those himes. I just put information out there that I think is interesting, not necessarily 'cos I think it's helpful to a lot of ppl.

Question.

If you have zero interest in feedback, criticism and discussion, why even post this thing on these public forums? Wouldn't it be more in line to just post to some Discord buddygroup and be happy in that social bubble?

Honestly, I just post stuff that I thought might be interesting to others. I do amend stuff based on feedback, but only if I agree with it as well - I mean, this is a hobby, not like contract work I'm being paid for or something. I do acknowledge my errors, but most of the continuing criticisms in this case seem to revolve around whether the ascension heal % and the pride multiplier are useful enough information to be worth listing out, not whether or not I got something wrong. I have already listed multiple reasons why I did what I did but I can't please everyone unfortunately. Some of this feels less like discussion and more like a personal attack on where one stands on selective vs completeness when presenting information and it's just getting exhausting.

Originally Posted by Slashley

That doesn't mean that Ascension is particularly good, though. I touched upon this in another thread lately, but to expand, here are requirements to make Ascension be a worthy stat:
1. You need to have Hime(s) who can make use out of it. Technically everyone has Andro, but then you run into:
2. You need to build a team with that/those specific Hime, without making your team suck.
3. Content needs to be the sort where having Heals makes a difference, ie. not a joke in difficulty for you (since if it is too easy, then you're just wasting Grid budget on something that does nothing for you). This might not be a big point since it's easy content that you clear anyway, why does it matter? The answer here is time taken.
4. Content needs to be healable (unlike say current Light Rag or AQ5 last boss).

ALL FOUR are required to make Ascension into a good stat. #1 is pure RNG (outside of MTs), #2 will probably need synergies (such as Thunder Aphro-Dian), and even if you clear those hurdles... #3 and #4 will constantly fluctuate, meaning that your hard work can go straight down the drain just because the content has changed. What should be noted is that I think DMM currently has like... five teams per element now? So building highly specialized teams will stop being an issue. Even after 6x Farming builds and 6x Burst Hour builds, you still have a whopping 18 highly specialized teams left, and I think you can even give them names so that you won't forget just what exact niche that team fills. At least, I hope that's a thing.


Anyway. These four things make me veeeery iffy towards Ascension. Do I love my Light Grid that I use to heal Dark Rags? Yes. But that just means that #3 and #4 are currently just right, which might not be the case one week from now (Dark Olympia coming out). And, even though my Light Grid does great things, it outright prevents me from ever MVPing Dark Rag. With great Heals comes a great price, I guess I could say.

tl;dr; Is it possible to make Ascension into a good stat? Yes, yes it is. Is it as easy as just slapping some Ascension weapons in your Grid? Hell no it is not. Just like with Vigor, have a fucking plan.

I'm uh, willing to blame Nutaku for withholding Azazel Awakening for my derp there if you are?I don't understand when I ever said anything about that?

There are now three teams that can run ascension in their grids and really don't sacrifice large amounts of fire power. Thunder has Marduk, Taphro, and Dian Cecht, Wind has Azzazel and Gaia, and Light has Sol. I'm not sure about Dark, Fire, and Water as I don't main them and am unfamiliar with their skill sets. Both Thunder and Wind has a Hime(s) that brings group regeneration AND firepower to the mix and are considered core to their operation. Ascension weapons (in the third skill) are very valuable for these grids. For Light, Sol is still considered a fairly essential character, since you have no reasonable source of damage cut. Ascension upgrades are essential if you want to sustain. Being able to sustain is how you get MVP in Dark Rags/Content.

The problem here isn't carrying Olympia raids - it's about outright time. Assuming Olympia are Rag-ish (and by that I mean, clear in about 10 minutes and drop 0.5 Globes), by leeching three raids at the same time you can earn 1.5 Globes per 10 minutes. This makes one Globe cost you ~6 minutes. Dejnov is making it sound like gathering up for 175 Globes on a monthly basis is easy, but that's ~19.5 hours per month. Now, that's perfectly manageable, being just ~40 minutes per day (of doing absolutely nothing else but farming Olympias). But, as we get more of them, you're gonna be farming multiple elements. Four elements are already ~78 hours a month, ~2.5 hours per day - EVERY day. Plus doing all the other stuff you're "expected" to run in Kamihime, like farming T2 Cores, Regalias, GO and AQs. That gets pretty rough, pretty fast.

Realistically speaking, you're going to be farming one weapon during the first rush of each element. Maybe two. But thinking about Grids with 5+ of the same Olympia weapon will effectively require you to drop other elements. And I think that should certainly be part of the discussion - root your expectations in reality.

My own initial interest is only 2 thunder guns (potentially 3) and 1 water lance (potentially 3) as an initial investment and upgrade to my current grid. The labyrinth water lance may also reduce the number I need (or me finally transitioning to a glaive grid for water). I might think of 5 thunder hammers as slot fillers to build a thunder hammer grid in the near future, but they wouldn't be used long term and would be swapped out for other Hime weapons. So I basically need a grand total of 3 initially and 6 probably in the far future. Seems damn easy to do for a vet.

My initial point is that if you're not a veteran, you can run these raids and pick up weapons to upgrade your grids in place of advent or union weapons. If you're in that boat, you'll have to focus on a single element (every journeyman player has to anyways) and these are fine to get you that solid first grid. After that, these are also fine replacements to flesh out your other grids. For veteran players, these are fine to tailor your grid to phantom weapon combos that were not possible earlier (without having to waste dollars on miracle tickets). For those who are ticketing their grid (specific OP Hime weapons); these are not going to find a big place in their grid, but neither did Advent, Union or most Hime weapons. Whales can safely ignore, veterans will tailor a small amount into their grids to mostly pick up vigor, and journeyman will focus on one or two elements that they absolutely need to finish/augment their main grid for clearing content.

I actually don't know why I had to spell this out... as it's always assumed. The needs of the player and effort involved predicate how or what you can do with any advice. To say that the advice isn't correct or valuable as it isn't immutable in all situations and for all players is a non-argument. That is always the case. To have such disclaimers over each and every piece of advice given on a forum so that everyone can cover their ass smacks me as over-lawyering the situation... and you do know who is the first group to be killed in every social uprising...



Dejnov.

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Happy Slashley!!!

So, now that a loooooooooot of time has passed (what, nine months?) my Phul Gun and Ophiel Lance grids are shaping up. And I have to admit... damn that is some impressive stuff.

It is fully possible to do great damage even when debuffs don't land. And when debuffs DO land... you're hitting damage caps. Which is fun to watch. While it does requires VERY specific stuff, such as multiple healers preferably and certain type of content... well, luckily, the most grindy content in the game just happens to fit into that certain type of content. That is to say, the raids.

Such a shame that they don't offer the same options to the rest of the elements, really. I don't understand why didn't they make same skillset weapons for all elements. But oh well. I guess Vigor grids are a privilege of exactly two elements (assuming you drew a healer or two for that element), except for omegawhales who can use Hime weapon Grids.

Ophiel Lance and Phul Gun are some of the best choices for a fairly free to play grid. I also believe that Wind with the Bethor Bows and Glaives and Dark with their Gun are also great choices (second tier due to pride based and not vigor based). Only Light and Fire didn't get great standout weapons from the release of Guardians (they're choices aren't bad, but more meh).

From a weapon skill optimal choice structure for the eight weapons you can slot into your grid (excluding Soul weapon and phantom weapon) is 8 assault skills, 3 exceed skills, 4 ascension skills, 4 vigor skills and 4 defender skills (due to no exceed, vigor, assault weapon choices).

That gets you nearly max exceed overcap, nearly max ascension overcap and 32-40% vigor (depending on weapon choice), while maintaining full assault and getting some minor defender. Hitpoints should mostly come from the Eidolon grid/Accessories near end game; some effort from weapons is always appreciated though.

From the above list, only water and thunder have a chance of doing that skill selection for free (due to the ophiel lance and phul gun alone); while, I believe, only Light can do it from a full phantom weapon selection option (with Light using Poseidon and Tishtrya lances) mostly due to the Tish lance.


Dejnov.

For F2P grids that just started on August (Mean Missing every event weapon), Is light Staff worth getting for?
and if you already traded for Ophiel Lance monthly, would it be good to also trade for Ophiel Axe? Both looks good