Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Originally Posted by blubbergott

-- Furthermore who cares about the exact cut point? --

A newer player would. As such, it is a shame that topic was never returned to.

Originally Posted by blubbergott

Yes, maths don't lie, but your base assumptions are entirely wrong. You're assuming that the KH that would replace Nike contributes nothing at all to the team besides plain autohitting.

Which I did directly mention, and also said to challenge that mathematically. Whileas this:

Originally Posted by blubbergott

From my point of view, a current dmm light team will always consist of: Michael, Metatron and most likely SSArty. That means Nike would be competing for the 4th slot against Take (way more damage than Nike would be doing outside of her assault buff + ~1m added to each burst), Tsuku (5% more def down, Nuke and blind) and maybe Sol if you really need heal/cleanse/dispel. And that's the thing, it's near impossible to just compare the damage/utility any of these adds to the assault Nike adds. It's definitely completely wrong to completely ignore it the way you did.

Doesn't even try to. It's just waving a white flag and saying that "Hey, this team of mine is probably correct, but I cannot base it around any sort of math." Which is the exact opposite of what I was hoping for.

Yes, it is difficult, but it is possible to associate a rough numerical value to each of them.

Originally Posted by Ikki

If dmm releases a hime that can deal 20M damage after 20 turns, on paper? shes amazing holy shit 20M dmg top tier stuff, practical use? garbage,--

Why call it garbage, when it has potential? It will, of course, depend on content. But, against content where 20m damage from one Hime allows you to skip a Rage phase which is the only dangerous part of the fight, then it is amazing. Yet, you don't even look for the possibilities - you just decide that it's bad, and that's that.

Note that I cannot say if 20m one-turn damage from one Hime is good or bad on current DMM standards though (probably good since 0-Exceed full burst cap is around 8,6m), since their numerical values are highly, highly different from ours. Unlike modifiers, which then apply in the same proportion to whatever base numbers they have.

Originally Posted by Ikki

This is the same damn thing that happened when you said that SSR baal wasnt amazing (even tho shes in every single top tier thunder team in dmm), --

Speaking of which, to this day, nobody has brought fourth a single reason why she would be good. Every time, it's just "I dunno lol, DMM players use her, she must be really good!"
Which isn't a reason. At all.

The only thing that I can think of is that if Elem Res- debuff really does help debuffs land, then it's really good news for Thor. Like in Sloth rankings screenshot that I saw, all the teams had Thor and SSR Baal. Is that really the solo reason why people think she's good? "Hey, I saw this Hime on the rankings boards, she must be great!"
... yes... she has a niche of being Thor's buff-bitch. That's... great? I wish people would make actual arguments for SSR Baal. Such as, replacing Mammon due to her downsides in the far future. There, I got you started, why don't you finish that line of thought?

Originally Posted by Mirage

Okay if we ignore the fact that her buff takes 11 turns to kick in, that's 14% damage increase over on-element Hime. Nothing seems wrong, except the fact that it assumes the Hime replaced by Light Nike will just auto-attack without any skill or passive.

Umm, if you're taking that perspective, then you're running with the wrong number. An off-element Nike will give 43% to the four other Hime, so 172% is what you'll lose from taking Nike out, and you'll gain directly 100% just from auto-attacks of the new on-element Hime. So, your new Hime will need to be capable of doing 72% of damage from skills. This isn't exactly accurate since it assumes that four members of the team will do nothing but auto-attack, while the new member gets to use skills. But hey? We can roll with it.

Originally Posted by Mirage

Let's take example, with Dark team, since Dark is probably the weakest in damage, and slowest burst ATM: A ideal team will probably be: Hero+Satan/AmonU/Thanatos/Samael+Pluto+1 strong attacker (Let's take Chernobog in this case)+Wild card.

If that wild card is L.Nike: 14% increase.
If it's anything else, which ideally will be a second attacker, we have: Berith (Counter, a faster and stronger self stackable atk buff, berserk), Susanoo(again faster, stronger stack, strong nuke), Kali (Pride-based atk and DATA buff), Agalia (Strong crit buff). All of these easily provide more than a mere 14%, u dont need to be a math genius to see this, people have prove this by actually using them.

So, bring forth the actual numbers. And, don't forget to bring forth the reasons why you have the other Hime in there as well. That should be easy, but the premise is also important. Honestly? I'd be amazed if Berith already wouldn't be able to do it, since she's at 160% auto-attacks just from her second skill alone.

Originally Posted by Mirage

--
- Light Nike will bring either roughly 30% damage boost, or double FB at turn every 10 turns, coz having both is just unrealistic in endgame scenario.
- 30% damage is something easily achievable with any Meta-attacker coz they can easily do 2 to 3 times damage of a standard defender, debuffer,...
If we take the Double FB approach, so it is DFB every 11 turns, or 1 FB every 4-5 turns+Elemental dmg buff, dmg cut+Nuke+DA with AW Mike. It's clearly as day which one is generally better.

Curious. Would you mind giving basis on where the 30% comes from? Since Light Nike gives 43% to each Hime. And since this is Light, also herself. So a Light Nike team is dealing 7.15 damage each turn when compared to 5 damage without her - that means that a Meta-attacker needs to deal 2.15 by herself. Thus, would you mind expanding upon these?

Originally Posted by Tanaka5

Have you really lost it to the point where you can't distinguish between Maths and Fantasy?
What you've been talking is like 'I will assume 1=2 and therefore 1 + 3 =5'.

I love Maths but the difference is, the rest of us are being practical. We all do our maths and theorycraft, then we see if that theory is actually applicable without which it is pointless as Blubbergott already stated.

In my case, if I think something is good but less used, I try to ask people who have used it more and actually know more about it than me. That's called curiosity which is how you become more knowledgeable.

You on the other hand get hyped by your discovery and assume everyone else is wrong because in your fantasy world, it is actually godlike. That is ignorance. They're at opposite ends of the spectrum.

If so, you'd think that it'd be easy to disprove me, no? I mean, I did leave even hooks specifically for that.
So, if it's ignorance, then where's the proof? Because, yet again, "that guy said so" isn't proof. That's just following somebody else blindly.

Originally Posted by Tanaka5

You are talking about people who love experimenting with their teams and himes and doing stuff like R runs on AQ4, SR runs on GO or maybe even R runs with a few elements. They test it in theory and then test it in practice unlike you who only does it in fantasy (For a theory to be practical, the base assumptions have to be practical first which aren't and hence, fantasy).

If they do actually do this, please do tell them to share their R Hime knowledge. Since honestly? The information about R Hime on DMM wiki is abhorrent. It is rather lacking even on SR Hime, but for Rs, it's often just... absolutely nothing.

Originally Posted by Tanaka5

I never had a personal problem with you but now I sort of. You always love making assumptions and baseless ones at that.

Ah yes, you will be a great loss to me. I'm sorry to see you go, random person on the internet whose majority of posts are right after Ikki's. Please, give my regards to Discord users.

See? I'm making assumptions again. Do correct me.
Since you see, that's just my form of curiosity. Is that annoying? Yes it is. Yet, I expect people to correct me when I'm wrong, and those who do AND can back it up, earn my respect.

Originally Posted by Tanaka5

-- Sanahtlig. Because I observed if he corrects you or when you are making an argument, it is always "According to Sanahtlig's guide........" but when someone more knowledgeable from DMM comes around and corrects you, --

Huh. This might be true. While I haven't done that on purpose, it is probably quite obvious that I hold a great deal of respect for Sanathlig. If you go aaall the way back to when I was a new, frustrated player, he set several things straight with me. He also has made a toolbox available for everyone to use. Very few people have given to the community as much as he has, really. Speaking of which, thumbs up to Aken. I wish his spreadsheet was more publicly known as it does it's job excellently.

Anyway, then we get to the crux of the problem again.

Originally Posted by Tanaka5

they are a space whale or not mathematically inclined when they have it tested both mathematically and practically.

See, here's the thing. If they've tested it mathematically, then they could easily debunk it mathematically, no?

Hum guys I would like to ask a question now, can anyone please answer. I heard some people said something about Arthur equiping Hercules' relic weapon for the -25% Def (instant burst), but can we even get the skill that was supposedly exclusive to Hercules, like the +30% elemental atk?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hum guys I would like to ask a question now, can anyone please answer. I heard some people said something about Arthur equiping Hercules' relic weapon for the -25% Def (instant burst), but can we even get the skill that was supposedly exclusive to Hercules, like the +30% elemental atk?

No.

You can get the Burst effect when equipping on other Souls, but you don't get the other two effects as those are Soul specific. You don't get the elemental attack/HP, and you don't get the skill boost. So even if you put the Axe on Arthur and put Herc's third skill on Arthur, it'll just be the normal, usual third skill.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hum guys I would like to ask a question now, can anyone please answer. I heard some people said something about Arthur equiping Hercules' relic weapon for the -25% Def (instant burst), but can we even get the skill that was supposedly exclusive to Hercules, like the +30% elemental atk?

No you don't get the attack bonus if you use a different soul.

The only thing that I can think of is that if Elem Res- debuff really does help debuffs land, then it's really good news for Thor. Like in Sloth rankings screenshot that I saw, all the teams had Thor and SSR Baal. Is that really the solo reason why people think she's good? "Hey, I saw this Hime on the rankings boards, she must be great!"
... yes... she has a niche of being Thor's buff-bitch. That's... great? I wish people would make actual arguments for SSR Baal. Such as, replacing Mammon due to her downsides in the far future. There, I got you started, why don't you finish that line of thought?

You know that elem res- debuff is also a 30% def down, right?

I think he does know that? IIRC, his main complaint about SSR Baal was the 90 second duration on that skill.
But that's mitigated by Baal's cooldown reset skill. IIRC, the idea is to fire the debuff first->reset cooldown->when 90 seconds are up, cast debuff again for another 90 seconds->at least 8 turns should've passed within 180 seconds so you can reset cooldowns again->cast debuff a third time for another 90 seconds. You should be able to string together close to 270 seconds of that debuff in the worst case scenario. And 270 seconds ought to be enough time in fights that get resolved in under 20+ turns. Which as noted by you guys earlier should be the normal situation.

Originally Posted by Kimoi

You know that elem res- debuff is also a 30% def down, right?

Yes, I do. But Def cap is already covered by Mammon and Charles Blast Dartagnan.

Which leads further into the line of thought I mentioned earlier, but nobody has said out loud on these forums.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Yes, I do. But Def cap is already covered by Mammon and Charles Blast Dartagnan.

Which leads further into the line of thought I mentioned earlier, but nobody has said out loud on these forums.

Cause you dont need d'art anymore if you have baal, duh, it gives you flexibility to use other souls like morgan (with thunder aphro for retarded auto dmg), shingen or hercules, its pretty basic knowledge that these 3 souls shit on d'art, thats the whole point of SSR baal, but you couldnt grasp that yourself which proves how dumb you are.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Whileas thisoesn't even try to. It's just waving a white flag and saying that "Hey, this team of mine is probably correct, but I cannot base it around any sort of math." Which is the exact opposite of what I was hoping for.

Since you previously mentioned Svarog, here's a bit of number crunching:
Assuming 2.3 ability dmg modifier for Svarog nuke (probably the absolute minimum you'll ever have, should be higher in practice) and not enough damage to hit 300k/hit cap (which we prob will at that point, but lets go with that for simplicity) and your 180% assault. For simplicity i'll just take nuke on CD = 3 hits / 3 turns = 2.3 additional atk worth of damage each turn. So not completely disregarding the stackable atk buff, we already get a damage increase of 7.3/5 = 46%. That's more than Nike adds at turn 12. By then Svarog also adds 40% assault, resulting in 3.2/2.8 * 1.46 = 67% increase in damage.

But now once again, this assumes all other 4 are doing nothing but attacking, which would be ridiculous. You'd have to simulate a specific team setup, then compare it to another specific team setup, otherwise all that number crunching has no context at all. Even then, you can only calculate the exact CONSISTENT damage if you were using all skills on CD, which once again, doesn't say much. Pacing is so important in Kamihime (unless you only AAB) and Nike offers 0 options for that (besides the double full burst i guess). I love theorycrafting and number crunching, but it is only as good as your model and getting a precise model for every situation is impossible / infeasible. That's why playtesting is so much more important. Leave number crunching for things that are consistent and where the results actually have practical relevance, but don't rely on them stubbornly for more complex problems like this. Sure, do the math to get an idea of what it does/adds, but until you test it or see it in action, you'll never know how well a KH really fits into a team.

Once again, not saying Nike is useless, she definitely has her Niche uses, but putting a slowpoke like her into one of the fastest element teams for content that probably doesn't even last 10 turns most of the time might not the brightest idea.

Originally Posted by Slashley

How much did you whale again~?
Just a reminder, when talking about perfect teams, it's not that easy. Miracle Tickets will get you a good way in a single element, at least.

Light's my main, so I'm confident a little dolphin like me will be able to manage. Thanks for the concern though.

Originally Posted by blubbergott

--
Assuming 2.3 ability dmg modifier for Svarog nuke (probably the absolute minimum you'll ever have, should be higher in practice) and not enough damage to hit 300k/hit cap (which we prob will at that point, but lets go with that for simplicity) and your 180% assault. For simplicity i'll just take nuke on CD = 3 hits / 3 turns = 2.3 additional atk worth of damage each turn.

While 1.3x is the upper end Svarog's first skill, fair enough (1.15 would be more on the average side).

Originally Posted by blubbergott

So not completely disregarding the stackable atk buff, we already get a damage increase of 7.3/5 = 46%. That's more than Nike adds at turn 12. By then Svarog also adds 40% assault, resulting in 3.2/2.8 * 1.46 = 67% increase in damage.

Since you started with 7.3, we could just keep to that, no? 7.3 * 3.2/2.8 = 8.34.
As a reminder, off-element Light Nike is 4 * 4/2.8 = 5.71, and as such, significantly lower than on-element Svarog. I'm not surprised.

So, next question. What about the rest of the team?