Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Originally Posted by Slashley

vigor

Well, the vigor buff we all know and love. Opposite mechanics of pride except exponential (kinda) decrease in effect, calculated in it's own multiplier kind of deal. Isis is one of the most notable ones when it comes to dummy-kun.

50BG

Ah... the beauty of Shingen BG MEX. Instant +20BG to all, and then skill 1. Voila.

Does dummy punch you?

Dummy-kun does punch you, sometimes with wet noodle damage and sometimes hard, although strats do exist to keep vigor up in spite of damage... even for off-element use.

2 FB

I'd like to point out that having 2 PF FB is pointless in that particular dummy-kun because the only score that matters is your highest, not your total.

Still, how does that fare in normal combat? You have a pattern of 10T for the first potential FB, followed by 5T before you pull off the next one, then 10T again. 7.5T per 2 PF FB. Well you've just dedicated one slot in your team for an FB slave. Which tbh, light doesn't really need, since there are setups for them to consistently burst every 4T or less, while still having other skills that are buff or utility in nature.

And Mike AW already exists to add +20BG to everyone after she bursts. Have her and Nike in the same team, the value of Nike's instant everyone burst kind of drops a bit, you might as well just use something else.

Being a buff slave wise, 12T isn't too bad for keeping up 120% assault, but then she does literally nothing other than buff. And this kinda setup is better in a war of attrition, so you'd probably run Sol. And now you have 2 slowpokes to hold back your burst. Run a Tish to try and keep them up sure, but it's gonna be a real hassle. The damage output tanks pretty significantly if you can't burst quickly.

Fight is atrociosuly long

What Nike needs 35 turns to accomplish, other setups can probably accomplish 5 times over. This is why I don't exactly like the idea the Nike is the queen of slowpokes, what she does isn't amazing in retrospect of taking 35 turns to set up. And already, being either slave isn't exactly the best option because light has so many multi-utility himes coming right up.

And even if you do, the only place where that's super practical, hrags, due to the massive HP, and assuming you survive that long... no one's gonna wait for you to take a whole lotta turns to do massive damage. While you're setting up a faster team would've sniped MVP already. You might as well make yourself more useful running a support build. Which isn't to mention that you probably won't survive that long.

I wasn't talking exclusively about the dummy, but well... okay.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Well, the vigor buff we all know and love. Opposite mechanics of pride except exponential (kinda) decrease in effect, calculated in it's own multiplier kind of deal.

Yes, so, WHAT Vigor buff are you talking about? Since you're making it sound like you can EITHER pick Light Nike OR Vigor buff?

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Dummy-kun does punch you, sometimes with wet noodle damage and sometimes hard, although strats do exist to keep vigor up in spite of damage... even for off-element use.

Off-element? Considering what a massive deal on-element is for single turn damage output, can you have any hope whatsoever in the rankings when going off-element?

... not that one would have any hope in those to begin with I guess, I mean, whales have such an advantage in something like this it isn't even funny. How are you going to compete with Bam when by default he has 20~33% more base Atk than what you do? This is before we even consider the increased Assault and Elemental modifiers he has over you...

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Still, how does that fare in normal combat? You have a pattern of 10T for the first potential FB, followed by 5T before you pull off the next one, then 10T again. 7.5T per 2 PF FB. Well you've just dedicated one slot in your team for an FB slave. Which tbh, light doesn't really need, since there are setups for them to consistently burst every 4T or less, while still having other skills that are buff or utility in nature.
--
Being a buff slave wise, 12T isn't too bad for keeping up 120% assault, but then she does literally nothing other than buff. And this kinda setup is better in a war of attrition, so you'd probably run Sol. And now you have 2 slowpokes to hold back your burst. Run a Tish to try and keep them up sure, but it's gonna be a real hassle. The damage output tanks pretty significantly if you can't burst quickly.
--
What Nike needs 35 turns to accomplish, other setups can probably accomplish 5 times over. This is why I don't exactly like the idea the Nike is the queen of slowpokes, what she does isn't amazing in retrospect of taking 35 turns to set up. And already, being either slave isn't exactly the best option because light has so many multi-utility himes coming right up.

Yeah, if we're talking perfect, perfect, perfect teams here, maybe? But really, who is going to have those? Well, maybe a lot depending on how those scatter among Miracle Tickets... what a boring future awaits if everyone runs just literally one build.

Anyway, when we're not talking about the very perfectest teams that ever graced the Kamihime plane of existence, Light Nike offers you - in long combat - either ridiculous amounts of Assault (and we're talking a team-wide damage boost of P2W Eidolon levels) or a ridiculous amount of spike damage which puts Uriel to shame. YOU get to choose which one you take.

How is that not stupidly good?

Originally Posted by Slashley

How is that not stupidly good?

Because you have to replace Kamihime X with Light Nike and question is whether you'll break whole composition with it or not.
I do think that she'll may work for some ridiculous stalling team for tower F15. Get some turtling team, have fun in first 2 stages for 15/20T and shoot Dysnomia with double PF +100%/120% assault buff thingy. Maybe even with Shingen's bow, just to make things even more ridiculous (you'll have to think about Shingen's BG though). This assumes that you'll survive first two waves for 15-20 turns, but with turtle team it should be possible.
Of course meta light will have better result, because it'll be faster, but why not do something stupid once in a while.

Originally Posted by Gludateton

Because you have to replace Kamihime X with Light Nike and question is whether you'll break whole composition with it or not.
I do think that she'll may work for some ridiculous stalling team for tower F15. Get some turtling team, have fun in first 2 stages for 15/20T and shoot Dysnomia with double PF +100%/120% assault buff thingy. Maybe even with Shingen's bow, just to make things even more ridiculous (you'll have to think about Shingen's BG though). This assumes that you'll survive first two waves for 15-20 turns, but with turtle team it should be possible.
Of course meta light will have better result, because it'll be faster, but why not do something stupid once in a while.

The fact that you throw this example as a meme situation to use light nike kinda answers why shes the opposite to good, i laughed tbh.

Originally Posted by Slashley

snip

It's almost 4am in the morning so I'mma make this brief.

vigor and off element

I present you Isis. Run her in various elements, use her guard to suicide against strong hits and get a backup hime that can generate enough BG to catch up to the rest, go ham. At least in dummy.

perfect team

We're talking about a future where light has like pretty much 10 (numbers? It's almost 4am so spare me) viable himes that work well together mixed and matched. There's no single team that works for everything as far as I know, but there sure are himes that everyone universally considers borken beyond comprehension.

Perfect teams vs light Nike. One takes time and money, the other takes pure money or luck... or a whole lot of saving. Pick your poison I suppose, but I'd think that having a good light team is an eventuality if you plan your mtix investments properly... if you're being a light baka. After all, I'd like to think mtixes are either optimal or dickpicks. If not dickpicks, you go for the single best option... that's at least how I'd think anyone trying to be good at the game goes.

As for what light Nike offers, this is kinda dragging long, so... all I can say is you need more factors. It's not just spike damage or assault I'm looking at, but team building in general.

The whole reason I'd shit on light Nike this hard is to simply prove that meta wise, she's not a hime worth going for as she isn't gunna be breaking the game for you if you do whale for her, waifu reasons aside. And I'll be honest, I'm quite bored so such discussion keeps me from rotting in my hikkikomori lifestyle.

In any case, it's actually 4am for me now so I'mma sleep. Peace.

Originally Posted by Gludateton

Because you have to replace Kamihime X with Light Nike and question is whether you'll break whole composition with it or not.

But that argument breaks apart if you're not talking about the very perfect teams. It's like saying "I have four Uriels, so I don't need Light Nike for anything"
Which, well, is true. But not everyone is going to have teams of anywhere near that caliber. And hell, even Light Nike IS in that caliber, but the problem is that she needs 10 turns+ to get there. While Uriel, Svarog, Lugh and friends don't.

Originally Posted by Gludateton

I do think that she'll may work for some ridiculous stalling team for tower F15. Get some turtling team, have fun in first 2 stages for 15/20T and shoot Dysnomia with double PF +100%/120% assault buff thingy. Maybe even with Shingen's bow, just to make things even more ridiculous (you'll have to think about Shingen's BG though). This assumes that you'll survive first two waves for 15-20 turns, but with turtle team it should be possible.
Of course meta light will have better result, because it'll be faster, but why not do something stupid once in a while.

I don't think you'll even need all that. Just double PF FB should be enough, one would think.

And really, speaking of Tower 15F, I don't think I have ANY teams that can do it off-element. Light Nike would instantly change that. Debuff resistant bosses are just stupid.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

I present you Isis. Run her in various elements, use her guard to suicide against strong hits and get a backup hime that can generate enough BG to catch up to the rest, go ham. At least in dummy.

I don't think you understand just how good 120% Assault is.

Have some numbers from my upcoming damage calc:
58000 359% assault
53046 239% assault 20.5% vigor
58327 239% assault 32.5% vigor

At the entirely unreasonable 239% Assault modifier (9*21% + 40% Character Eidolon + I forgot a 10% Pride in there as well), you need over 32% Vigor to outdamage Light Nike's buffs. For my current wimpy Fire grid (163%), over 41% Vigor is needed. Oh, and this is all with Herc who the calc considers to have an extra ~38,42% Assault. Oops, I should've removed Passive, Master bonus and self-buff.
Or the calc could be entirely fucking broken since it's not like I've tested it as it is very much under construction still...

Of course, your point was that Isis can give that buff (which is fairly lengthy 5t), then get herself killed with Guard and you get a free 20% bonus damage for four members. Yeah, sure. Light Nike certainly can't do that. But then again, her damage boost laughs in the face of a mere 20%.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

We're talking about a future where light has like pretty much 10 (numbers? It's almost 4am so spare me) viable himes that work well together mixed and matched. There's no single team that works for everything as far as I know, but there sure are himes that everyone universally considers borken beyond comprehension.

Please, do list them. How long until you get to Hime like Sol, who also offer zero damage output?

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

As for what light Nike offers, this is kinda dragging long, so... all I can say is you need more factors. It's not just spike damage or assault I'm looking at, but team building in general.

Well, do list the other factors then. Yeah, characters like Lugh and Tish have synergy between them (and an impressive amount at that), but there's still two slots open. Yes, Light gets stupid Hime in the following year. But again... how many of them are you actually going to have?

If Light Nike was a one trick pony, then yeah, I could see team building being an issue. But she can fill two different roles (a two-trick pony!) depending on how you use her, which makes her somewhat versatile.

Not sure why everyone is throwing a fit over whether Light Nike is amazing or thrash... the truth is: it heavily depends on your team and what you're trying to do. LNike is really good for newer to mid tier players, where her massive spike damage will get you through harder content that you'd normally struggle against. A good example is something like GO, something that's quite difficult for non-vets, but can easily be cleared using LNike double FBurst. However, as you get stronger and fully develop your grid, you just don't really need that anymore (because more often than not, 1 full burst does the job) and you begin to transition into looking for better average damage (for faster clears/MVPs etc). In this stage, LNike isn't particularly great, because it takes a long time for her to build up and thus averages out somewhat poorly. That said, it doesn't mean she's useless. Instead of running some meme turtling team for 15f of tower, what you CAN do is use her to carry a much weaker team through 13-14 (or w/e is a little below your max), while using your main where it matters most.

i will discover a truth - if u main light - skip for for Tish
if u just want a hime to be useful - roll for her
if u are like me - do a 3k roll then waste left for Tish

Originally Posted by Slashley

But that argument breaks apart if you're not talking about the very perfect teams. It's like saying "I have four Uriels, so I don't need Light Nike for anything"

You don't need perfect team, you need team in which Light Nike does not fit very well.

Originally Posted by Slashley

If Light Nike was a one trick pony, then yeah, I could see team building being an issue. But she can fill two different roles (a two-trick pony!) depending on how you use her, which makes her somewhat versatile.

If you want to go for this double FB thing, you have to wait 10 turns with Light Nike doing barely anything. It's like Siegfried in wind GO.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Instead of running some meme turtling team for 15f of tower, what you CAN do is use her to carry a much weaker team through 13-14 (or w/e is a little below your max), while using your main where it matters most.

True, but I have hard time believing that Light Nike will carry you through. Meme turtling build has one thing going for it, Light Nike covers thing that it lacks most: damage (or rather huge spike damage).

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Not sure why everyone is throwing a fit over whether Light Nike is amazing or thrash... the truth is: it heavily depends on your team and what you're trying to do. LNike is really good for newer to mid tier players, where her massive spike damage will get you through harder content that you'd normally struggle against. A good example is something like GO, something that's quite difficult for non-vets, but can easily be cleared using LNike double FBurst. However, as you get stronger and fully develop your grid, you just don't really need that anymore (because more often than not, 1 full burst does the job) and you begin to transition into looking for better average damage (for faster clears/MVPs etc). In this stage, LNike isn't particularly great, because it takes a long time for her to build up and thus averages out somewhat poorly. That said, it doesn't mean she's useless. Instead of running some meme turtling team for 15f of tower, what you CAN do is use her to carry a much weaker team through 13-14 (or w/e is a little below your max), while using your main where it matters most.

This pretty much summarizes why light nike isnt liked very much among veterans, shes slow, niche and out of speed meta (and yes slashley get used to debuff resistant bosses, thats the inevitable future so learn to love them, using "debuff resistant enemies are stupid" as an argument is stupid), so you have 2 scenarios:

- she gives 2 full burst, oh great nike thanks for your second full burst, a shame that this thing died in the first, maybe next time i try stacking your assault buff.
- well nike your assault buff is sick, its a shame i didnt have time to stack it enough, maybe in the (nonexistant) future ill stack it enough.

She fails on both so yeah ill pass on her along most veterans, and in regards to the light units that outshine nike when put together in different scenarios, you have iris, tish, takeminakata, michael, sol, lugh, vishnu, metatron (kinda niche so dont take me too seriously on this one), light atena, those are a few that leave no place for nike at all, good thing that nutaku separated nike and thunder aphro so people could roll for aphro without being dissapointed by getting nike.