Well, lackluster in comparison to the rest of the light pool is a given, but that's kinda an unfair comparison considering that rest of the light pool is unbelievably borken...Originally Posted by Unregistered
... in comparison to elements like dark which get utterly shafted in so many aspects. Seriously. Can Pluto not be the only one to be a team player in a dark setup, and can dark get something to buff their BG cycle as a whole?
Edit:
LSatan's buffs: GDA becomes GDATA, nuke comes down to 5t cd, skill 2 becomes 6t cd and gains additional crit buff. Burst effect: additional pursuit dmg on normal atks for 3t.
... which isn't phenomenal to say, but at least it isn't utter garbage.
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Last edited by Cobblemaniac; 02-01-2019 at 09:26 AM.
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Is Pluto even a party player? Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
Ability 1: Her block generation is so damn slow. While it is nice how much Combo she has when those blocks are up, those blocks WILL be gone the next time she bursts. And then she can be block-less for a long time.
Ability 2: She has a pretty nice +Atk +Elem buff, but it consumes a block, has a short duration and long cooldown. Resulting in pathetic uptime and thus really only good for boosting your Full Burst turns.
Ability 3: She has damage cut, but suffers from the exact same problem. It's great-ish against Light (-50% damage cut for two turns is nice!), but against everything else the long cooldown just kills this entirely. Yay, you can save yourself from damage once. But it won't be ready for the second time, or even the third, so you'll just die anyway.
Burst: While it's nice to hit the 1000% burst modifier cap (or should I say 500% base + 500% modifier?) with ease thanks to blocks (starting from turn7), this is... pretty much all she does well.
Overall, I was impressed with Pluto when I rolled her, but now she just feels... off. She only has a place in the team for her high burst damage, which she does once per fight. I suppose if there was content that'd nicely cycle in 7 turns so that you could burst -> block up, it'd be nice-ISH... ... until you remember that her damage buff is too slow to keep up with that. But for now, you're either holding onto your abi1 until burst or bursting the blocks out and not having any for long periods of time.
Pluto just really needs an Awakening that puts her blocks outside of the 500% burst boost hard cap, speeds up her block generation significantly and lower the cooldowns of her partybuffs significantly. You know, so that there's actually be player choice on when to use blocks and when to save them for a higher burst.
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Umm. Originally Posted by Slashley
First thing first... legos aren't subjected to the 500% burst dmg up cap. So the numbers can get crazier.
Second... why would you hold on to skill 1 until bursting? The run would normally go like: cast skill 1 at turn 0, wait for turn 5 or so to burst because dark is a slow motherfucker but thank god for Shingen MEX, legos come back on turn 6.
Third... you're breezing over her DATA from legos. That can't fly. Pluto with legos is one of the only few consistently fast BG gainers in dark. Remember about da burst.
Um. Friendly reminder that this is 50% dmg cut on the same hime that holds her own (or hell, even carries) in terms of damage output? That's kinda the problem of dissecting each move one by one... what about looking at the entire hime as a whole?Dmg cut
Also... find me another dark hime on meta which has that kinda dmg cut... Hades AW rebalance gets a light res but that don't come in until a year later.
The very definition of a team player never relied on the cd of their skills to begin with unless absolutely atrocious. I don't see Pluto holding back the rest of dark in that aspect, she's never the one to fall behind in BG, her burst is pretty good, she got that dmg cut. What other dark hime does this better?Team player
Well... I won't deny you that one. To me Pluto makes or breaks dark as a whole... which is kinda sad considering her skillset wouldn't be the most absolutely broken thing you witness (that title probably belongs to Mike AW or Iris...), attesting to how sad the dark meta will become. But one can only hope. It's been 1 year 2 months since the last dark AW.Pluto AWLast edited by Cobblemaniac; 02-01-2019 at 10:30 AM.
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02-01-2019 #4Unregistered Guest2 things i would like to add to this Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
1. While it does have a 8T CD, it lasts for 2 T therefore you have it down for 6 Ts total, when you consider that most potent cuts from other himes are just 1 - 2 turns shorter on the CD and not as good. You might say Gaia AW's, Water Raphael or Water osiris's cuts are better but here is the thing, alternative himes are usually better than the common ones and Gaia i dont even have to mention due to the AW
2. The concept of a teamplayer does not relate to their CDs, take Metis for example: a future Light SR with a 60% cut, cleanse - debuff block for everyone but her, and a taunt - Dark RST up. Yes her CDs are high however everything she does is meant to support or help out the team, you can argue that maybe her CDs are so long it makes her bad, but questioning if they are a team player or not based on their CDs and not their spells is just absurd
Finally, as cobble said find some other team players outside of Pluto. Most dark himes fall into the stigma of them just doing their own thing. Berith and Osiris are the only 2 i can actually think of
2.
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Are you sure? Since the first thing I did was go to 9 stacks and go "har har har this will be AMAAAZING" aaaaand... oh look, didn't even reach my cap of 1m. Considering how I get close to 1m with 3 blocks + PF, I could swear that they ARE included in the cap. Also, this page ONLY lists Uriel and Metatron AW as the ones who have buffs outside of the cap. The singular DMM wiki pages can be off really easily, though. Pluto's own page doesn't comment, I think. Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
I can retest this, I mean, I've only done it once. If she's not capped, then she'll be a ton better.At the moment there's no way you'd burst on turn6. That'd require quite a few fast Hime. Maybe once Shingen MEX becomes a thing, but even when it does, is Dark going to have the debuffs to swap to Shingen without Sniper Shot? I fucked up in AQ5 and my Samael debuff wasn't ready for AQ5 boss today, and my Dark team hit like a wet noodle even with PF. I shudder to think how pitiful it'd be if it had been -0% Def without Herc Axe. Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
In the future I'll be able to comment better once I get to actually see just how good Shingen MEX is. Or how common debuff immune bullshit will be. Until then...
Anyway, back to the point. So, as I briefly mentioned before, the reason why you hold on to Pluto's first ability is because once you have the first set of blocks, any more just... isn't good for you. They'll just be gone once you burst, and you only need 4 to hit burst cap (one for buffing up the team, 3 for 300% + PF). So you need 4, you have 3. If you use abi1, you'll be at 6 - which means that two will be wasted unless you've needed your damage cut. Even if you have - you're still wasting one block. And those blocks come back on turn seven, not six. Six turn CD means that turns 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 need to end before you can re-use it. That's a long time. And Pluto NEEDS those blocks to be viable - she doesn't do shit without them! Thus, you get the dilemma of "uhhh, am I going to use this ability and have Pluto be garbage for a good amount of turns, or do I just use it for higher Combo chance right now and fuck the future?"
It's often not really a decision. Either you're in easy content and you just use it, or you're in hard content where you need to save it so that you won't risk Pluto of all things being your Full Burst bottleneck. Because Pluto IS your first slot, right?"da burst"? Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
I did mention the Combo rate, but it's tied to the blocks. And the block generation on Pluto is just outright miserable, as I also mentioned. It simply does NOT sync with any content I've used Pluto in so far, which makes her already pitiful block generation even worse.I'm not sure about carries. She punches often, sure. Her burst packs a punch. But I dunno, I wouldn't call that a carry by itself. Is that better than a random SR? Sure. Is that better than SR Beelz? ... eeeh, probably? That's actually an interesting question to which I'll hopefully have an answer later today. Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
Also, again, that damage cut is only proper against LIGHT specifically. Eight turns is a LONG time, and in content where you need a damage cut, 30% just doesn't... cut it. In other words, if you're fighting against anything that does damage against you, it's going get AT LEAST three shots at you and Pluto can only help with one. That is NOT good. Meanwhile, comparing to other -30% Hime like Raiko or Snow Raphael, they can typically block half of the incoming fire. This means that without the Light bonus - which again eats into block generation and undercuts Pluto yet again - the damage cut ability is bad.Gaia! -60% against Thunder for 1t, plus -20% for another two turns after! Bonus points, Regen to take the brunt off the mitigated nuke. This can fairly easily not only entirely negate an entire attack, allowing you to take it fully next time. And for the third? Gaia will be ready again to entirely negate it. This on top of COMPLETELY removing all threat of any single-target nukes. Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
Of course, Pluto sits in slot1 whileas Gaia sits in slot4 for being the slowest Wind Hime around. And Pluto obviously bursts WAY harder.
Outside of Gaia, I'd much rather take Hime like the pre-mentioned Snow Raph or Raiko. Again, that faster cooldown just makes a better damage cut. It's like Pluto is trying to dabble into both offense and defense at the same time, and honestly, doesn't really succeed in it.I... don't even understand what this means? Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
But cooldowns are an important part of things. There's a niche for 3t with 5t CD (spam it), there's a niche for extremely high buffs for 1t with 15t CD, but Pluto's 2t with 8t CD is... lackluster. In both offensive and defensive. Either the CD needs to be less, or the duration needs to be longer, or the power needs to be higher and the duration shorter (as in high buff for 1t on 8t CD).I'm just questioning if she's really a team player or not. On paper, she seems great. In practice... she's not bad, but she just doesn't excel as one might think. Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
Out of interest, do you have Pluto yourself?
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Well then. This is gonna be a long night. Originally Posted by Slashley
Ah, the caveat. What I meant when the legos weren't part of the 500% burst dmg up cap was that it's in a separate bracket. Whether that bracket has a cap... I'm not sure about that.9 stacks
I'd believed the point of this discussion to be the meta, and therefore, assume a situation where you'd have all the himes you'd need available. Given this consideration, I'm pretty sure dark could at least pull off a FB turn 6 at worst.At the moment there's no way you'd burst on turn6. That'd require quite a few fast Hime.
I don't understand your dilemma either tbh. Casting the legos early means you get your DATA buff early and Pluto's gonna be up fast and ready to burst early. Worst case scenario (very unlikely with the best setup) your skill cd comes off before you can FB, you just wait until you FB before you cast your legos. And if your team happens to be able to burst before she refreshes legos... then it's all about looking at what will come flying at you and whether you can afford to take it or not isn't it? If you see you need the dmg cut or you'll die before legos are up, then you hold off your FB for the moment and cast a timely dmg cut. Otherwise, cast legos and bombs away. Just a little bit of micromanagement and foresight.
That isn't to say that a niche doesn't exist for Pluto does it? 50% dmg cut for 2t with a long ass cd? Sounds like a useful tool for a team that can get things done quickly, helps them soak a strong hit from enemies and then clean up, doesn't it? Or maybe even in raids, she's your backup in case your friendly neighbourhood Joans are still down on their cd.Dmg cut
Sure, you can have your doubts about Pluto if you compare it to other elements... but in the context of dark, she's almost the only team player dark has, if you simply define a team player by contributing useful buffs and not holding the team back, she does all of it! But since the rest of the dark cast just kinda up and does their own thing, I don't see anyone else really contesting Pluto for a spot as the better team player. She wins by default.I'm just questioning if she's really a team player or not.
I wish. Only Thanatos and Amon U, in addition to that a non-functional grid that stems from not having any dark himes for the longest of times...Out of interest, do you have Pluto yourself?
Also... 3am now so I'll need to drop to sleep soon... I'll pick up wherever this goes tmr I guess.Last edited by Cobblemaniac; 02-01-2019 at 12:06 PM.
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02-01-2019 #7Unregistered GuestCool downs are important yes but for fuck's sake did you completely ignore the point of Cobble's arguement? Cool downs can make a hime better or not, but what decides whether they are a teamplayer or not depends on their ability and what they do Originally Posted by Slashley
Your Gaia arguement basically ignored my entire previous post, you are comparing a purely defensive hime that has AN AWAKENING to a TRICKY hime and then there is your CD arugment. Again the CD accounts for the turn you activate and use it as well 8 Turns + the 2 turns it stays on meaning you only have it down for a total of 6 turns. Any other cut AGAIN not from an alternative version hime usually sits in the range of 5 -6 just like her and they are not even as good as hers
Another thing, unless you specifically main some other shit, where's the incentive to use a non dark team outside of their own respective element? Berith and Pluto can do a great number on the Light High Rag
The beezlebub arguement is just bad. What was even the thought process? Pluto offers everything beezlebub has and even more without any drawbacks
I dont even know what you meant by Uriel but if you are talking about the tokens, those has nothing to do outside the cap. The 2nd ability is a cap raiser - bonus damage but that's about it
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What bonuses should I pick for my union in union event? I guess hp and attack but how many levels do I need?
Last edited by aono; 02-01-2019 at 12:57 PM.
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Alright, I'll have to retest that then. I've done today's AQ and GO, so it'll have to be tomorrow then. In GO, since my Dark team probably can't handle the Sat Wave2 fucklord. I've noticed that Pluto will NOT save me from that shitface. Neither would Raiko though, so eh. Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
Anyway, as far as I know though, there's no "separate brackets." Either your burst damage buff is under the 500% cap, or it isn't. And as far as I know, only Uriel and Metatron are the ones that don't fall under the 500% hard cap. Then there's a couple of special cases like Take who adds a specific number to burst, or the newer 200 burst meter Hime... ... I actually don't know do those Hime also have their bonus fall under the 500% cap or not...Do they? I mean... Cherno without Cherno mode would be fast, I guess, but... uh, not sure if worth it. Satan, Thanatos would be fast, and Satan easily deserves the team spot. Berith's burst meter can fly depending on RNG. Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
Yeah, I guess, fair enough. Also to be noted is that Shingen's MEX will guarantee 100 burst for everyone on turn 7, so that's a thing if you don't need Herc's debuff.Well, you'll see if you ever get her. Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
I don't really know how else to put it. You always get your blocks on turn1. After that, only if your burst is on turn 6 or turn 7 does Pluto's abilities work in her favor. But if you need to delay, you're probably going to need to delay abi1 as well. A blockless Pluto is worse than a generic SR most of the time, after all.Well, fair enough. Even though it only works against Light, fair enough. Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
Well... I guess! Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac
I mean, I wouldn't reward anyone for winning a contest that no other entries whatsoever, but I guess you're technically correct!
Did you know that I was a junior national champion in karate? I mean, nobody else showed up, but that doesn't mean that I didn't win!
The thing is, Pluto doesn't do all that much for her team. She gives a slight boost to the their burst damage, and that's it. She can once in a blue moon save them from some damage (or a lot of damage if Light). That's why cooldowns ARE important. They... make or break a Hime. And in this case, I find it closer to breaking than making. Originally Posted by Unregistered
Pluto is more of a self-buffer than a team-buffer, really.I don't quite think that's how it works. You're basically saying is that 8 turns is the same thing as 6 turns. So you're ignoring the uptime of the 6 turn ability and including the uptime of the 8 turn ability. Originally Posted by Unregistered
Technically, you can use Pluto's damage cut one turn early, and then it's like comparing a 7t CD to a 6t CD. That does mean that absolutely nothing can go wrong though. Maybe your Combo attacks didn't trigger as much as you liked, and Rage didn't trigger. Maybe Combo attacks went wild and you Stunned a boss instead. But even if you manage to overcome those kinds of things, it's a HUGE difference - 6t abilities are usually ready JUST when you need them - NOT one turn too early! This can of course depend on how many bubbles a boss has, but in general, one turn slower is deadly for damage cuts and makes all the difference.Oh? Do tell me, what CAN Pluto do against (true) Light Rag? Originally Posted by Unregistered
You're not saying that 20% Assault and 30% Elemental is the same as 50% Berkserk, are you? Since if you are, I believe you aren't very aware of the damage formula. And let me say that this 20%+30%=50% is not in favor of Pluto at all. Originally Posted by Unregistered
Good sir. Uriel's tokens are 200% each, and they stack to 10. AND they're outside of the 500% cap. Which means that, Uriel Awakened can reach a WHOPPING 3050% burst modifier. Which is why you see her doing 2m burst damage even with F2P player Grids. Since you only need to punch for ~67k to reach 2m with that modifier (plenty doable even against Water). Meanwhile, outside of Uriel good luck reaching even 1m as a F2P Grid (at the moment). It's certainly possible, particularly with Crits or Aether, but. Originally Posted by Unregistered
So yes... those tokens have everything to do with the cap. First ability is outside the cap, second ability is inside the cap. Without the second ability, you'd see Uriel be at 2750% burst modifier with PF. Which uh, would be broken by itself already, but Uriel obviously goes above and beyond that kind of calling. So let's not even mention how much faster Uriel generates her tokens, or how much better they are for bursting, or how much better they are for her combo rate. Because Pluto doesn't even begin compare. Not many Hime do, so let's not go there, alright?Attack is always a must at 100. No exceptions. Originally Posted by aono
For damage output, Double = Burst (ONLY with Full Burst control, and has bonus points during Burst Hour) > Triple.
100 HP is 100% more HP and 100 Heal is +150% heals. Both can be helpful in reaching higher levels for casual Unions, particularly when combined. But these are generally ignored by serious Unions since getting hit by high level Demons WILL kill you even with double HP. Well, this is Lust, so it's difficult to see anyone ignoring HP here...
And finally, there's Affliction (inflicting ailments). For Lust, bigger Unions tend to pile like 5 Mars users and with 100 Affliction, one of them tends to go through. Then you pile Mordred's VoFs, and bam, you can fairly easily debuff Lust. A Blinded Lust with -50% Atk and Def is a tamed beast. For Unions that don't coordinate like this - which I assume you are not since you're asking this question - it's probably best to ignore this on Lust. For non-Lust UEs, 100 Affliction is amazing for Thor users.
And just to be sure that you know, 400 Grails per day is the max. You also lose your buffs when the day resets.
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02-01-2019 #10Unregistered Guest
Attack - ideally all the way to 100. But if your union has trouble farming grails (like say; your union farms under 100 grails a day...), stop at 50. That should be enough to comfortably get enough kills each day to get all the normal rewards at least.
HP - usually the 2nd priority, yes. If you have the grails, 50-100. If you don't have the grails, whelp, live with just atk, and prod your union to at least farm up grails for the days when you really push expert and/or ult.
Other stuff assumes your union isn't composed of just lazy jackasses when it comes to grail farming...
Burst - more important if your union does most of its work during burst hour, significantly less if it's the other way around (ie most of the work is done outside of burst hour)
+affliction success rate or whatever the thing that improves ability to land debuff is called - if your union has paralysis users to do the pushing, you want this. If your union doesn't, you don't care about this.
+Double attack rate/+Triple attack rate - the default offensive buffs for non-paralysis users outside of burst hour. IIRC, +double maxes out at +25%, +triple maxes out at +10%. So +double is the more reliable buff.
+healing - most useful when your union doesn't use paralysis users, does its work outside of burst hour, and each fight involves a fewer number of people (and thus a given fight lasts a long time). Also contigent on how your best pushers actually fight. Alternatively, this can also be considered to be more friendly for lower power players just looking to get to 3 million individual PP over the entire event.
+debuff resistance - only remotely relevant against Sloth
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