Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Unregistered can't post images, so I finally went ahead and registered.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

The first image is my assault equation with and without a vigoras weapon (plus the base 2 prides).

That clears up a lot actually - you are using P(H) with a pride multiplier of 20, that is 20slvl pride(++). I have been using what is P3(H) in your image with a pride multiplier of 12, which is only pride(+). It turns out that makes a noticeable difference in how attractive pride looks. P2(H) is FLB pride(++), which neither of us are currently using in our discussion I believe.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

The second graph shows the update with three prides in the weapon grid. Y axis is total assault mulitplier, x axis is hitpoints starting at 0 and going to 100% (5% per division)

To be more precise, it appears to be showing 2 pride(++) vs. 3 pride(++) and 1 vigoras(++)? You have a third image, which looks like 2 pride(++) vs. 3 pride(++) and 1 vigoras(+) with a smaller assault penalty for being (+) instead of (++).

Originally Posted by Dejnov

If I didn't have any pride weapons, I would be at a flat 2.36 assault.

Not sure how you end up with that, based on your formula, it looks like you have 3 20slvl assault(++) which have base assault of 0.16. Since you are using pride(++) in your formula, I assume you are comparing it to other assault(++), so without any pride, you should be looking at 5 assault(++) and 4 assault(+), all 20 slvl, which should be 132% assault giving a multiplier of 2.32 no? This is mere curiosity, that difference is not qualitatively material in any way whatsoever.

Btw, the shortcut I use is start with what your grid would be before you make your pride/vigoras decisions. For every pride(++) I add, I assume I replace an assault(++), which means I lose 6% base assault for a 0.2 increase in pride multiplier. For pride(+), I assume I replace an assault(+), which means I lose 3% base assault for 0.12 pride multiplier. For vigoras(++), I lose the entire assault(++), so lose 16% base assault for 20 vigoras base (slvl 20), and for vigoras(+), lose 13% base assault for 16 vigoras base.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

The end result is that if you're interested in mitigating the issue you have in using pride weapon versus an assault weapon into your weapon grid is that you probably are better of pairing pride weapons with at least a single vigoras weapon to offset the assault loss at the higher hitpoints.

Actually, this depends on your premise. Let me show you my version of the charts (look basically the same as yours, I just normalize everything so the all assault case is at 1 instead of 2.36.)

Attachment 12500

a. If you are starting with the premise that you are stuck with at least 2 pride weapons and you want a more even dmg profile, you can add vigoras, which flattens the high hp portion of the curve, at the expense of dragging down the dmg around the center of the curve (compare red line to the other lines.)
b. If you are starting with the premise of having a full assault grid and you have the option to switch out some for pride and vigoras, then you are increasing dmg at low hp at the expense of lower dmg at mid to high hp (compare blue line to the other lines.)

There is no free lunch here.

One thing I dislike about pride/vigoras setup regardless of whether you are looking from perspective a or b is that it usually results in you losing assault around the center of the curve, which is usually where you spend most of your time in. What is good really depends on your build and what you are fighting as well. It sounds like you have an abilities and burst heavy build, so you want vigoras for abilities and pride for burst (assuming you eat some dmg to build burst quickly.) You also heal better than me, so you can more easily move your mid-hp himes back up to full health, whereas I might just be moving them around on the flat part of the curve for no gain at all. This discussion made me much more aware of what the curves look like and where those breakeven points are =)

Btw, when I added a second vigoras weapon, it tends to either look like regular vigoras or you come out ahead only at extreme hp ranges depending on how many pride weapons you pair it with. Would be curious to see if you find a combo that you like.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Let's start with two test cases that kind of summarize the issue with Abou.

So, I am going to skip the discussion of Abou without vigoras, 'cos I don't like that setup either and completely agree with you there. Abou with 1 vigoras(+) replacing 1 SR assault on the other hand can look very attractive but only within very narrow circumstances. Let me show you my chart first:



What I am showing here is a base case without Abou, and a change case with Abou and vigoras at various elemental level (A = assault, E = elemental, V = vigoras base.) All curves normalized such that the base case is at 1. The first case you described is the blue line - sacrificing 40% elemental for Abou; I also added sacrificing 13% assault for vigoras. Still doesn't look great. The second case you described is the yellow line, even worse. In fact, there is no reason you would do that 'cos the curve is always below 1. The one case where it looks very attractive is the one I pointed out in an earlier post: soul weapon + 100% eido friend + replacing your own 40% eido with Abou, that is the red line. As you can see, that sticks very close to 1 then goes above 1 around 70% hp, all the way up to 20% gain. For comparison, the pride/vigoras combo we were discussing gives you max of around 12% gain relative to all assault. It gets better if you have higher assault (green line) or higher elemental (LB or 120% friend eidolon - I did not bother plotting that one 'cos I don't have LB fluffy friends, and 120% eido dun exist for light.)

So, if you are in my boat, where you have a few friends with fluffy but you don't have one yourself, Abou may be worth considering. I think you mentioned you have LB2 thunderbird though, so it may not be attractive to you, since you are sacrificing 50% instead of 40% elemental (it will end up between red and blue line.)

Now back to grinding so I can MLB Abou and see if my theory pans out (currently at LB3, almost there!)

Originally Posted by Slashley

While I'm not touching the rest of the discussion with a five foot pole...

Only five foot? Most people prefer ten foot poles when I start pulling out charts =)