Thread: Soul weapon discussion

Originally Posted by Slashley

Shingen or PF

Well good luck getting that early on. Remember HSP? Shingen's still only accessible to vets for a good bit.

Basically... while Shingen or Herc is the go to soul for us vets... you still gotta remember that for players before that stage, new metas surrounding MEXs for other souls are still possible.

Support

Joan and Andro. You need both the dmg cut and the sustain. Unless you run a raid of 12 perfectly organised Joans.

Using Arthur

Pretty convenient for still getting your fast PF options in hrag raids where getting MVP significantly reduces your grind.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Well, it's easy to say "narrow down and only view a specific thing" but... unfortunately the maths behind this game doesn't really bend that way. Is there ever a reason to use anyone except Shingen or Herc? And how can Overlimit compare to using PF on Herc?

Because it looks like Joan would be a thing for supporting (true) Ragnarok Disasters, but aside from that, are you really ever going to use anyone but one of those three?

->Open Spoiler<-

In before GO Soul specific missions, or ultra-space whales using Sieg to break damage caps.

People use Shingen and Herc as end game options, people who aren't strong enough have to opt in for other things. You use Joan or Mordred as a newbie, you use D'art on maybe some other situations that calls for it, Solomon with her MEX can sweep towers, gem time quests, dungeon crawling and Andromeda is also a core part of being raid support not just Joan. The only 2 i cant find a reason for most people to use are Sieg and Arthur. Why bother with Shingen or Herc if you are not a damage carry on high rags? You are not doing a huge part of the work so why not opt in for other shit that could help like Andromeda or Joan as you said.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

There are plenty of reason to use other Souls then just Shingen or Herc. First of, if you dont have a team that has some decent speed, they are actually more of a burden or solo-actor when it comes to pacing.

How so? Herc in particular offers you basically EVERYTHING you want. Damage, durability, debuff. How is that a burden in any way?

Originally Posted by Itoshira

Andromeda is even more important in True Ragnarok then Joan is (what use do you have for a random appearing dmg cut when there is no danger incoming?). Both together make the Raid inredible safe for everyone though.

Well, that'll depend on what kind of moveset these things have. That's something I'll know better when we get to see them in action.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

Solomon becomes an incredable nuker with her reset skill, even outside of Tower. Dropping 2m+ damage in one turn can help out a lot on controlling bosses.

And, when isn't just running Herc with her 700k not good enough? We're talking like one turn slower (700k nuke + auto-attacks should do it), while Herc is also:
1. immortal,
2. offers the team a unique debuff,
3. team-wide PF buff,
4. nearly guaranteed to not being Soul-capped for burst speed, which also results in higher attack damage in general.

It is difficult to imagine content where it's easier to give up ALL of that just so that you can move a boss in or out of Rage one turn earlier. I mean, it's possible, but 1. it needs to be content where's you're walking on thin-thread where one side is that you can clear it, and the other side is that you can't clear it 2. you need to be familiar enough with the content to be able to make the call that you should be able to do it with Solomon, but not with Herc without RNG landing just right - this for example takes out Tower since you can't just experiment with the content to see how it goes.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

Hercs Overlimit makes her an incredible nuker and overall attacker in a couple turns already. With a mediocre setup I casually threw 1.8m Full Breaks around, not even mentioning her Burst damage that went to cap just like that.

That doesn't sound right at all. Not only that you were glorifying 2m damage from Solomon just a few lines earlier, and now Herc is doing just about the same.

But also, just what kind of values does Over Limit offer? Since right now, I can't even find those from DMM wiki. Not Herc's Page or the MP page lists anything... it does seem to stack, but still calling doubt on that. Something like that might happen if you ran the Bow for example, and you wouldn't do that, would you?

This is the part where you say double buffed P2W Eidolons and that you're using the Bow for memes. Outside of a situation like that, it's still hard to see Overlimit out-do PF. Depends on the kind of values it has.



I mean, I'd just love to see more variety in Soul choices. But unfortunately, it's ultimately a game of maths, and the devs have made a couple of choices WAY too good to be true.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Well good luck getting that early on. Remember HSP? Shingen's still only accessible to vets for a good bit.

Basically... while Shingen or Herc is the go to soul for us vets... you still gotta remember that for players before that stage, new metas surrounding MEXs for other souls are still possible.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

People use Shingen and Herc as end game options, people who aren't strong enough have to opt in for other things. You use Joan or Mordred as a newbie, you use D'art on maybe some other situations that calls for it, --

While true, this brings forth the next question: how accessible is MP to new players?

If it's like candy, then sure. Player progression will probably still stick to Mordred -> (Joan ->) meta (as in Shingen/Herc), but they can pick up new skills along the way... IF MP is easy to come by. And if the skills are better than the passive upgrades. And how much passive upgrades is 15 MP? Like 45% stats? That's a lot for a new player...

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Pretty convenient for still getting your fast PF options in hrag raids where getting MVP significantly reduces your grind.

Does it? How does the drop system work?

Since at least for Ult Disasters, really the only that matters is that you're hosting. Whether or not get the extra Fragments... doesn't really even matter, thanks to the Shop system handicapping your purchases so badly. Even if the drop system is the same, maybe it'll matter more for the (true) Ragnaroks since I believe they require a hefty amount of Regalia to spawn, which makes them a massive chore to host in mass.

Depending on how much one uses any of the other soul lines, as that decision point dictates things moreso than the ex skills themselves. The new ex skills are fine stuff to consider in a debuff resistant context (or, one in which your kamihime take care of all your debuff needs) once you've already committed to such and such soul.

Arthur (presumably you're Shingen-less if you're using Arthur): 20% chance of +20% crit damage for 2 turns is kind of weak, but it buffs all participants (exactly like how Arthur's atk buff targets all participants). Granted, it'll take coordination to get the most out of this in a raid/union fight. Alternatively, you're using Gawain for Ambush and want the crit buff for whatever reason (possibly being someone else's crit buff slave).
As for the self-only 40-50% vigor buff... ehhhh.

Joan (you've decided to commit your soul to defense): the single ally 100% damage cut on a 6 turn cooldown can be nice if you're looking for that ol' cover/invincibility combo to deal with random targeting overdrives. If you want that combo in one unit, use the ex with Roland. Olivier already offered a self only invincibility skill, but it's on a 8 turn cooldown. The new ex being 6 turns lines up with Roland's cover.
As for the stacking 4% def buff every 2 turns for up to 30 turns? Yea, that's long duration content only. I can come up with some uses for it for my own situation, but it's rather niche/specific to certain events.

Andromeda line (if you really want your soul to be a healer with maiden's prayer/chaos magic/res access): party-wide debuff block on... 8 turn cooldown? Very encounter specific. I don't think this would be used much outside of Medusa reprint.
Single ally endure buff on 8 turn cooldown? You can make a knock-off version of the cover/invincibility combo with that... if you're opting for the Andromeda line over the Joan line for whatever reason. But hey, if you've already committed to this soul line, it's an option.

Solomon line (why?... oh right, you want to do 0 turn stuff): Some big ability performance buff? Guess in case you're bringing in a nuke heavy party for those 0 turn shenanigans.
Self-only ability refresh? You're relying on yourself for said 0 turn shenanigans.

Siegfried (uhh, someone help me out here with what specific plans call for the Siegfried line): Self-only guaranteed double attacks for 3 turns every 6 turns? DPS-wise it should lose out to using Arthur's 3x-4x nuke every 6 turns (until said nuke rams into its 300k damage cap), but you do get the burst gauge buildup instead. Ehh, if I had plans for Siegfried, I'd probably use the other ex more than this one?
Party-wide soft damage cap buff. Well then. Presumably you're so strong, you're desperate for this sort of thing. That does not describe most of us.

Mordred (more for the lower power teams and/or for more conservative play; also, likely not to be used in debuff-resistant content): 6 turn cooldown orb eraser? It fits what you're trying to do if you're opting for Mordred in the first place. Fine option if I'm not going for Chaos Magic in the particular encounter. A-frame def debuff presumably taken care of by a hime.
Nuke based on # of debuffs applied? And no numbers given for the scaling yet? Bah, can't really comment on that beside the relatively high damage cap (700k?).

D'art: Eh, basically what you said. Mammon-like nuke's something nice when your ex slot choice comes down to 'damage'. And I skipped Snatch EX cause nobody cares about a Snatch version 4, right?

Hercules (when you still want the Herc axe def debuff and/or the one man army awesomeness): self only atk/damage cap stacking buff? Ehh.... does the cap stacking apply to full break?
A nuke that does 5% of current HP every 7 turns with a cap of 600k? You need an enemy with at least 12 million HP remaining to keep hitting that cap. And you'll need an enemy with at least 6 million HP remaining to get at least 300k damage from this to beat Arthur's nuke. And who knows where Overdrive caps at if the enemy's raging. By raw HP count alone, you're looking at lv 90/lv 100 raid type stuff to have encounters durable enough for multiple uses of this nuke to be relevant. But I don't know how those work. So I don't know if a Herc user can last long enough to get off multiple uses.
Alternatively, for leechers who want to at least contribute a bit of 0 turn damage, this is an option.

Morgan (you have some specific plan requiring party-wide berserk): first ex is... you give an ally a 1 turn cover buff? Ok, ok, you can put together that cover/invincibility combo if your team composition somehow has someone with self-only invincibility but no way of providing cover. Or combo with interceptor.
And the other ex is... give an ally a 10% pursuit buff for 3 turns on a 6 turn cooldown. Pure dps-wise, this sucks for the most part. I have some other guesses, but the issue is, I don't fully understand pursuit. Does a pursuit attack generate burst? Then this could function as 3 extra attacks worth of burst gauge. Does a pursuit attack apply effects that a normal attack would?

Shingen (the meta default): Encouragement. It's the usual meta choice.
That said, the +25% burst streak buff? There's a use for that when you don't need encouragement as much and/or you hit so hard, +burst streak is one of those things you dig up to try to circumvent soft damage caps. Again, that's a power level that does not describe most of us.

MP is gotten through either continually gaining experience with a lv 20 soul (50k exp for 1 MP I think?) or through exchanging soul points/hero soul points.

As far as Shingen goes, hero soul points are time gated. So a new player must wait X time before unlocking her. In the meantime, in theory, you can grind your ass off for an arbitrary number of MP via exp, as long as you still have the half-elixirs/seeds to keep you going.

Originally Posted by Slashley

How so? Herc in particular offers you basically EVERYTHING you want. Damage, durability, debuff. How is that a burden in any way?Well, that'll depend on what kind of moveset these things have. That's something I'll know better when we get to see them in action.And, when isn't just running Herc with her 700k not good enough? We're talking like one turn slower (700k nuke + auto-attacks should do it), while Herc is also:
1. immortal,
2. offers the team a unique debuff,
3. team-wide PF buff,
4. nearly guaranteed to not being Soul-capped for burst speed, which also results in higher attack damage in general.

It is difficult to imagine content where it's easier to give up ALL of that just so that you can move a boss in or out of Rage one turn earlier. I mean, it's possible, but 1. it needs to be content where's you're walking on thin-thread where one side is that you can clear it, and the other side is that you can't clear it 2. you need to be familiar enough with the content to be able to make the call that you should be able to do it with Solomon, but not with Herc without RNG landing just right - this for example takes out Tower since you can't just experiment with the content to see how it goes.

Yes, she offers all that, and all that is bound to requirements. No buffs? She is weak like any other soul and complicates PF usage. No Relic? No Burst? No Debuff. She gains much BG? Great, how about all your other hime? Are they ready aswell? Herc is just like Shingen, bound to conditions, if they are not right, then she is has lesser value.
And once again, if you happen to have a proper team that can make use of all she offers in a proper lossless way, it is totally fine, but before that, some other options are just maybe better overall. And sometimes that 1 turn is exactly that important to avoid getting killed. I dont wanna eat a 10k AoE if I can avoid it have to avoid getting an AoE Paralyze, Burst-Lock, Abi-Lock on my ass. 1 turn can matter far more then you think.

That doesn't sound right at all. Not only that you were glorifying 2m damage from Solomon just a few lines earlier, and now Herc is doing just about the same.

But also, just what kind of values does Over Limit offer? Since right now, I can't even find those from DMM wiki. Not Herc's Page or the MP page lists anything... it does seem to stack, but still calling doubt on that. Something like that might happen if you ran the Bow for example, and you wouldn't do that, would you?

Herc needs more help to reach that damage while solomon has pretty much everything herself and only needs the debuffs. Also, the exammple with Overlimit was in regards to sticking to PF on Herc. So nothing to do with Solomon and her damage, as Herc needs 10 turns to reach that point, so Solomon already did 2 rounds of that damage.

Used Hime were: Atum, Tish, Diana, Michael.
Weapon: Herc Axe
Eidolon: 45% Thunderbird + 120% Fluffy Non-Friend (2 Light Eidos in Sub, so not even reached max value of that Fluffy)
Average power at the point of this: Round about 50k or something, 100 - 120% Assault (I dont exactly remember how much I had, but it should be around that point)
Target: Dark Cata Ultimate

If I aint wrong, Overlimit increases per stack 10% Overall Damage Cap, Abi damage, abi damage cap, Burst damage. Up to 5 stacks possible

I actually could use the current Dummy-Event and test this once momre to see if I can break the 2m. I have Michael AW now :thinking: and strong grid

This is the part where you say double buffed P2W Eidolons and that you're using the Bow for memes.

I'm 100% F2P on DMM and only buy MTix on Taco. No need to bash around like this.

I mean, I'd just love to see more variety in Soul choices. But unfortunately, it's ultimately a game of maths, and the devs have made a couple of choices WAY too good to be true.

And you can have that, you just need to step away from math and you are seeing a wonderful world of variety of possibilities.

Edit: Well, it seems like I hit the cap since I cant get any higher. Below the screenshots of my personal best so far.
http://prntscr.com/m0uttx
http://prntscr.com/m0utvw

Originally Posted by Itoshira

Yes, she offers all that, and all that is bound to requirements. No buffs? She is weak like any other soul and complicates PF usage. No Relic? No Burst? No Debuff.

I don't understand this at all. Herc's buffs are 5/7 uptime. Are they down? Yes. But then it's quickly back to immortality land and she keeps healing up. No burst isn't really an issue, since anyone can get a Soul weapon in ~7 days with the help of their Union - and with it, Herc is rather fast. It takes ~30 days to get LMB version, which might get on the nerves of Union mates though.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

She gains much BG? Great, how about all your other hime?

That's when you have the choice of applying your burst debuff. Vastly depends on content and team comp, though.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

-- 1 turn can matter far more then you think.

Very true, but again, you'd need to know that this one turn will be a thing in this run. Reminder that you're going to be running non-Herc all the way until this very point - so your team's damage output is probably not going to be particularly impressive all the way up until this very moment where you need the spike damage. Are you going to reach the same moment with a very different team?

Again, technically, it's possible. But practically speaking, sounds very, very unlikely.

Or of course I could be all wrong about Solomon's damage output with the reset MEX.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

So nothing to do with Solomon and her damage, as Herc needs 10 turns to reach that point, so Solomon already did 2 rounds of that damage.

Oh, that's true. Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

If I aint wrong, Overlimit increases per stack 10% Overall Damage Cap, Abi damage, abi damage cap, Burst damage. Up to 5 stacks possible

So, that's effectively double cap then. 1.4m. However, reaching 1.8m would require 5.8m pre-cap damage... that's not quite something you can do with the set-up you mentioned unless there's another ability cap increase in there.

However, 8 Def on Ult Disaster will help your damage output a lot. Not something I'd quote as a damage reference.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

And you can have that, you just need to step away from math and you are seeing a wonderful world of variety of possibilities.

Which are all vastly inferior. It's great if you're doing lesser content in which you virtually cannot wipe, but why risk it in anything else?

Atum has Abi damage + Abi damage Cap up aswell on her Cooldown skill. Her heal gets an additional effect of dmg increase. Hercs Ability Master Stat also increasing Ability cap. And I did the same setup again on Dummy, which has 10 Def afaik and I reached 1.85m, so I assume that I'mm capped and it wont go higher then that unless I gain another source of cap increase.

It depends on your team if you can reach the same damage or not. Lets put my DMM team for example. You know who the star of that team is? Vishnu. The whole team basically is all about her and get her going. LAthena for protection is perfect for that, so she is still a choice over Atum in my regular line-up. And Vishnu is even more consistent when it comes to Bursting then Herc is. She is ready to Burst on Turn 3 (Granted +20BG from Michael to do so). And after that she basically bursts every 2 or 3 turns consistently.
Herc is only used to have 50% Def down in total. I would instantly switch her for Shingen or Sieg if I had another debuffer as Hime, sadly I dont have one, so I need her right now.

Lemme drop another example: My Thudner Team. Dear god, this is a dream for probably many Thunder mains. BaalU, Marduk AW, Nuwa, Dian, Tyr, Mammon. Full SSR top-notch team. Here is the kicker: The Grid is just way to weak do go berkserk-pew-pew-style.

Herc? Not even considering her, cause in this case Mordred has proven FAR more useful then Herc. This team is not fast but extremly sustainable, has Def down by Hime themself, so all I need is some stalling options and Mordred with her Orb Eater + BP makes it perfect. When I get Shingen, I may tinker around with her, to check out the limits of the sustain then, since I then have more speed for Dian, but unless that point, Mordred has proven superior over any other Soul.

So in conclusion: Not just content and Team is a factor, also your Grid/Eidos should be considered.

That is the very same for the MEX skills aswell, they are depending on content and team.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

Atum has Abi damage + Abi damage Cap up aswell on her Cooldown skill. Her heal gets an additional effect of dmg increase. Hercs Ability Master Stat also increasing Ability cap. And I did the same setup again on Dummy, which has 10 Def afaik and I reached 1.85m, so I assume that I'mm capped and it wont go higher then that unless I gain another source of cap increase.--

You'd spend MP on THAT?

So combined with Atum, this was mostly the case of you having 1.8m or 1.85m cap. Probably 1.80m considering how you hit 1.85m against 10 Def and 1.88m against 8 Def. It's still a very nice number, but I'd say that you vastly overglorified it and failed to mention the amount of support cap-increase you've piled on it.

Sure, why not? Where is the problem with that? I guess it aint obvious enough what the goal of this roster/setup was? To basically make Herc a nuking monster in maximizing Ability Damage on her in addition to let her burst and attack like a monster. Else I wouldnt choose to set it up like that. You either go in one direction all the way or drop it. But if you do, make sure it reaches it full potential, else it's gonna crash.