Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Oh and as you can see i retarded out hard and left most my arguement inside the quote but if you still care enough to keep this topic going go for it

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I wanna make this very clear to avoid future quarrels like this.--

You make it sound like human conflict is inherently a bad thing.

Aside from that, there isn't much to reply to. As far as I can tell, you're basically saying that a 5/7 uptime is just as good as 2/8 uptime. And how raid Joan + your Pluto will make you basically immune for a turn, which is fair enough, but you can also just wait for a second Joan. Or how you're trying to say that 50% Berserk is weaker than 20% Assault +30% Elemental.
... I'll not even comment on those.


Now then, off to test Pluto's charges. I'll edit this post later, unless there are other posts below this.

EDIT: Here we go. Video of the test.

->Open Spoiler<-

After a complete pain in the ass damage calculation (why didn't I use Pluto's buff on the previous turn when showing off damage, and RNG from mobs triggering three Pride Axes... thank fucking god I had the last moment idea of "what if they ALL hit Pluto this very turn?" and debuffed Combo-), I've concluded that Pluto's stacks are indeed part NOT part of the 500% burst damage up cap. And unlike what I speculate in the video, they are indeed 100% each. My old damage Calc claims 1.28m pre-cap with that calculation, and that's easily damage range of the 1.23m which happened. And speaking of speculations, my 800-900k speculation was off as the 500% cap would've lead to ~754k damage.


That certainly does make Pluto better by quite a lot, since stacking up stacks beyond 3 won't be entirely wasted.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Or how you're trying to say that 50% Berserk is weaker than 20% Assault +30% Elemental.
... I'll not even comment on those.

Unfortunately I don't have time now, so I'll only refer to that point.
Let's bring forth... the math.
Let's assume pretty decent grid with 200% assault and 175% ele. Let's also assume that average number of hits per hime is 2.

For berserk we have:
2 turns of 10 attacks, so 20 attacks. 20 * 0.5 = 10.
So about 10x damage gain from berserk.

For Lego Girl's buff we have:
(1 + 200%) * (1 + 175%) = 8.25
(1 + 220%) * (1 + 205%) = 9.76
9.76/8.25 ~ 1.1830303, let's denote gain (about 18%) by X
No PF full burst with 5x SSR hime, so 5 * 5 * 69/40 = 43.125 (very simplified calculation, can't be bothered to do it perfectly)
One turn of 10 attacks.
In total 53.125 damage factor. This gives us 53.125 * X ~ 9.723

Now, the result is very close and tbh I'd choose Lego's buff, because above calculations are rather biased towards berserk (decent combo rate, no PF included, no exceed weapon included, no ability damage included).
Will you comment on berserk vs Lego's buff now ?

Originally Posted by Gludateton

Unfortunately I don't have time now, so I'll only refer to that point.
Let's bring forth... the math.
Let's assume pretty decent grid with 200% assault and 175% ele. Let's also assume that average number of hits per hime is 2.

For berserk we have:
2 turns of 10 attacks, so 20 attacks. 20 * 0.5 = 10.
So about 10x damage gain from berserk.

For Lego Girl's buff we have:
(1 + 200%) * (1 + 175%) = 8.25
(1 + 220%) * (1 + 205%) = 9.76
9.76/8.25 ~ 1.1830303, let's denote gain (about 18%) by X
No PF full burst with 5x SSR hime, so 5 * 5 * 69/40 = 43.125 (very simplified calculation, can't be bothered to do it perfectly)
One turn of 10 attacks.
In total 53.125 damage factor. This gives us 53.125 * X ~ 9.723

Now, the result is very close and tbh I'd choose Lego's buff, because above calculations are rather biased towards berserk (decent combo rate, no PF included, no exceed weapon included, no ability damage included).
Will you comment on berserk vs Lego's buff now ?

Just gonna add that berserk allows you to do practically nothing outside of normal atk. While with Pluto's buff you can add spike damage to most notably FBs.

... so just why are you comparing such a limiting buff to Pluto's buff slashley?

Originally Posted by Slashley

You make it sound like human conflict is inherently a bad thing.

Aside from that, there isn't much to reply to. As far as I can tell, you're basically saying that a 5/7 uptime is just as good as 2/8 uptime. And how raid Joan + your Pluto will make you basically immune for a turn, which is fair enough, but you can also just wait for a second Joan. Or how you're trying to say that 50% Berserk is weaker than 20% Assault +30% Elemental.
... I'll not even comment on those.


Now then, off to test Pluto's charges. I'll edit this post later, unless there are other posts below this.

After a complete pain in the ass damage calculation (why didn't I use Pluto's buff on the previous turn when showing off damage, and RNG from mobs triggering three Pride Axes... thank fucking god I had the last moment idea of "what if they ALL hit Pluto this very turn?" and debuffed Combo-), I've concluded that Pluto's stacks are indeed part NOT part of the 500% burst damage up cap. And unlike what I speculate in the video, they are indeed 100% each. My old damage Calc claims 1.28m pre-cap with that calculation, and that's easily damage range of the 1.23m which happened. And speaking of speculations, my 800-900k speculation was off as the 500% cap would've lead to ~754k damage.


That certainly does make Pluto better by quite a lot, since stacking up stacks beyond 3 won't be entirely wasted.

Alright since Gluda and cobble made their point about the whole berserk thing im only gonna say this. My original intent was never to say which one is better, i only had issue with you doing the 20% + 30% = 50% kinda math disregarding the different brackets for all 3 things. My only opinion of why it was better is that you can only normal attack with a berserk buff, while you can burst - use spells with pluto's buff and get a huge amount of spike damage

Now for the uptime issue. Yes i put michael there but my intent was to highlight the "Downtime" factor, however i worded that part like shit so that's my fault no questions asked. The "downtime" factor of pluto is a 50% Cut on element on a 6 turn Down time, compare that to most prominent cuts they are usually either on a 5 -4 turn down time and being a bit inferior to Joan's (usually by a 10-20% margin). Yes her CDs are long but it isn't as much of an issue as you made it to be

As for Joan, of course i expect you to know team work and coordination in those high rags, for this case since we are talking 50% damage cut a Light High rag. You can have that Joan use the HP weapon (it's not a bad weapon in terms of raid support) or you yourself activate a kaiser on top of a non HP weapon Joan and you would be fine. Plus you don't even need immunity for that entire turn, if you are using Dark and you have said Joan cut and Pluto's cut on you and you most likely will have some ATK downs on her the entire 5 hit wont do enough to actually kill a single unit that is unless your grid is under leveled to hell and not FLBed which isn't likely by the time the Light High Rag actually arrives

Again i have to highlight that im not trying to put Pluto on some goddamn pedestal, her CDs may make her a bit eh in people's eye but for an element like Dark? She would qualify as a team player, an amazing one regarding how little teamplay that element actually has

I have a question on how to keep advancing my weapon grid.

I'll use an example from one I have right now. I have an assault+ SSR with no limit breaks at level 50. It's total assault right now is 1258.
I also have an assault SR with full limit breaks at level 85. It's total assault right now is 1734.

Both are skill level 1 which means that I get +3% from the SR and +6% from the SSR. I currently have 40906 total assault (on the team page) and 15597 on the weapon page and 12288 on the Eidolon page. I'm not as worried about the double cost to raise the SSR (and I believe that I can brick it at a later date also). I more interested in should I switch it in now as it'll give me more total assault or should I use the SR and raise that instead?

Thoughts?

Dejnov.

Asking this here, should i use the ssr material for limit breaking an eido on a 100% eido or a kaiser dragon?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Asking this here, should i use the ssr material for limit breaking an eido on a 100% eido or a kaiser dragon?

LB 100% eidolon give you both stat and element dmg, Kaiser just give stat

Originally Posted by Gludateton

--
Will you comment on berserk vs Lego's buff now ?

I wanted to do better than that, as I thought I was like one hour away from finally completing the more advanced damage calc. And here we are, 11 hours of marathoning later and it should be about done. Christ.

So anyway, right now I am cross-eyed and have seen way too much damage formulas. As such, I haven't even looked at your maths. Maybe tomorrow.
For now, here's the results of my calc, all stats are teamwide:
SSR Pluto: normal attacks 622k, burst 3.4m+1.8m bonus, damage/t: 1.7m
SR Beelz: normal attacks 646k, burst 2.7m+1.4m bonus, damage/t: 1.5m

Honestly, the biggest difference comes from Pluto's self-buffs and the fact that she's SSR which gives her the way higher base burst modifier. Again, not what I'd call a team player just because she has one ability which is capable of boosting a team, and probably not even every burst cycle.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Just gonna add that berserk allows you to do practically nothing outside of normal atk. While with Pluto's buff you can add spike damage to most notably FBs.

... so just why are you comparing such a limiting buff to Pluto's buff slashley?

What limitations?

You're the one who controls when you use Berserk. Do you need to trigger a damage cut the next turn? Then just don't use Berserk now, attack, use the damage cut AND Berserk. Not even Susanoo with her 2t CD will lose a stack during this "downtime." There are virtually no downsides to Berserk. SSR Beelz not counting, since uh, five turns while burning 50% of your HP is uh... interesting.

Originally Posted by Dejnov

I have a question on how to keep advancing my weapon grid.

I'll use an example from one I have right now. I have an assault+ SSR with no limit breaks at level 50. It's total assault right now is 1258.
I also have an assault SR with full limit breaks at level 85. It's total assault right now is 1734.

Both are skill level 1 which means that I get +3% from the SR and +6% from the SSR. I currently have 40906 total assault (on the team page) and 15597 on the weapon page and 12288 on the Eidolon page. I'm not as worried about the double cost to raise the SSR (and I believe that I can brick it at a later date also). I more interested in should I switch it in now as it'll give me more total assault or should I use the SR and raise that instead?

Thoughts?

Dejnov.

I have a feeling I've already answered this, but whatever. In the long run, the SSR will is better in your Grid even at level 50. Early on... maybe not since the loss of base Atk might be more for you than the 3% Assault.

Just for the record, to answer this very question and some others, I've made a "simple" damage calc to handle the maths for you. It's outdated since all it supports is Assault, but a more advanced and a complete pain-in-the-ass to use version is coming up soon(tm). The weapon comparison will probably forever be better in the "simple" version.

Originally Posted by Slashley

what limitations

... I literally said it in the quote. FBs.

That said, use berserk when you have skills on cd and not ready to burst, I understand. What I don't get is you comparing a buff that is used for that situation only, and a buff that can be used to maximise spike damage. How do they compare?

And with regards to Pluto's point. We've been repeatedly saying that we don't really care how good Pluto's team playing is with respect to other himes. She is the only relevant dark SSR capable of team playing. That dmg cut might be the only thing that's relevant to you, and you think it's slow. But that's fucking huge in an element that doesn't have other himes like that. That's our point you've been missing this whole time.