Thread: Soul weapon discussion

Originally Posted by Unregistered

There's still the ambiguity that each soul line gets two new ex skills. So additional context somewhere in the conversation is needed to know that it's the +20 burst gauge ex and not the +25% burst streak ex.

Are there even any other MEX worthy of even mentioning?

A quick glance and only these caught my eye:
- Shingen's completely OP BS +20 burst party buff
- Mordred's orb eater (have fun with Cthulhu+Snow Raph+Dagon+Satan or something, huehuehuehuehuehue... no actual place in anything serious probably, but fun)
- Dartagnan's Mammon-like nuke. She can't PF anyway, so a nuke mite-b-cool.

Obviously, there's only one winner MEX.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Are there even any other MEX worthy of even mentioning?

A quick glance and only these caught my eye:
- Shingen's completely OP BS +20 burst party buff
- Mordred's orb eater (have fun with Cthulhu+Snow Raph+Dagon+Satan or something, huehuehuehuehuehue... no actual place in anything serious probably, but fun)
- Dartagnan's Mammon-like nuke. She can't PF anyway, so a nuke mite-b-cool.

Obviously, there's only one winner MEX.

You forgot Solomon cd reset MEX for tower.

Shingen's Burst Streak can have some usage.
Herc's Overlimit Buff is also not to underestimate.
Andromeda's Defiance Buff can be of use with a taunt/cover target.
Solomon's CD Reset is incredible useful.
Joan's stackable Def buff shine's in longer battles.

Notable mention:
Arthur's MEX are both not so bad. Her Crit buff is raid wide.
Sieg's Dmg upper limit Buff can have some usage as well.

In the end, most MEX skills can be of use, just like Souls. Unless you narrow your view on only a specific Team-Composition, then of course you will only use 1, maybe 2.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

--
Unless you narrow your view on only a specific Team-Composition, then of course you will only use 1, maybe 2.

Well, it's easy to say "narrow down and only view a specific thing" but... unfortunately the maths behind this game doesn't really bend that way. Is there ever a reason to use anyone except Shingen or Herc? And how can Overlimit compare to using PF on Herc?

Because it looks like Joan would be a thing for supporting (true) Ragnarok Disasters, but aside from that, are you really ever going to use anyone but one of those three?

->Open Spoiler<-

In before GO Soul specific missions, or ultra-space whales using Sieg to break damage caps.

There are plenty of reason to use other Souls then just Shingen or Herc. First of, if you dont have a team that has some decent speed, they are actually more of a burden or solo-actor when it comes to pacing.

Andromeda is even more important in True Ragnarok then Joan is (what use do you have for a random appearing dmg cut when there is no danger incoming?). Both together make the Raid inredible safe for everyone though.

Solomon becomes an incredable nuker with her reset skill, even outside of Tower. Dropping 2m+ damage in one turn can help out a lot on controlling bosses.

Hercs Overlimit makes her an incredible nuker and overall attacker in a couple turns already. With a mediocre setup I casually threw 1.8m Full Breaks around, not even mentioning her Burst damage that went to cap just like that.

Just some examples. Sure, if you have the perfect setup for a consistent 2/3 turn FB pacing, it makes sense to go for Shingen only.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Shingen or PF

Well good luck getting that early on. Remember HSP? Shingen's still only accessible to vets for a good bit.

Basically... while Shingen or Herc is the go to soul for us vets... you still gotta remember that for players before that stage, new metas surrounding MEXs for other souls are still possible.

Support

Joan and Andro. You need both the dmg cut and the sustain. Unless you run a raid of 12 perfectly organised Joans.

Using Arthur

Pretty convenient for still getting your fast PF options in hrag raids where getting MVP significantly reduces your grind.

Originally Posted by Slashley

Well, it's easy to say "narrow down and only view a specific thing" but... unfortunately the maths behind this game doesn't really bend that way. Is there ever a reason to use anyone except Shingen or Herc? And how can Overlimit compare to using PF on Herc?

Because it looks like Joan would be a thing for supporting (true) Ragnarok Disasters, but aside from that, are you really ever going to use anyone but one of those three?

->Open Spoiler<-

In before GO Soul specific missions, or ultra-space whales using Sieg to break damage caps.

People use Shingen and Herc as end game options, people who aren't strong enough have to opt in for other things. You use Joan or Mordred as a newbie, you use D'art on maybe some other situations that calls for it, Solomon with her MEX can sweep towers, gem time quests, dungeon crawling and Andromeda is also a core part of being raid support not just Joan. The only 2 i cant find a reason for most people to use are Sieg and Arthur. Why bother with Shingen or Herc if you are not a damage carry on high rags? You are not doing a huge part of the work so why not opt in for other shit that could help like Andromeda or Joan as you said.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

There are plenty of reason to use other Souls then just Shingen or Herc. First of, if you dont have a team that has some decent speed, they are actually more of a burden or solo-actor when it comes to pacing.

How so? Herc in particular offers you basically EVERYTHING you want. Damage, durability, debuff. How is that a burden in any way?

Originally Posted by Itoshira

Andromeda is even more important in True Ragnarok then Joan is (what use do you have for a random appearing dmg cut when there is no danger incoming?). Both together make the Raid inredible safe for everyone though.

Well, that'll depend on what kind of moveset these things have. That's something I'll know better when we get to see them in action.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

Solomon becomes an incredable nuker with her reset skill, even outside of Tower. Dropping 2m+ damage in one turn can help out a lot on controlling bosses.

And, when isn't just running Herc with her 700k not good enough? We're talking like one turn slower (700k nuke + auto-attacks should do it), while Herc is also:
1. immortal,
2. offers the team a unique debuff,
3. team-wide PF buff,
4. nearly guaranteed to not being Soul-capped for burst speed, which also results in higher attack damage in general.

It is difficult to imagine content where it's easier to give up ALL of that just so that you can move a boss in or out of Rage one turn earlier. I mean, it's possible, but 1. it needs to be content where's you're walking on thin-thread where one side is that you can clear it, and the other side is that you can't clear it 2. you need to be familiar enough with the content to be able to make the call that you should be able to do it with Solomon, but not with Herc without RNG landing just right - this for example takes out Tower since you can't just experiment with the content to see how it goes.

Originally Posted by Itoshira

Hercs Overlimit makes her an incredible nuker and overall attacker in a couple turns already. With a mediocre setup I casually threw 1.8m Full Breaks around, not even mentioning her Burst damage that went to cap just like that.

That doesn't sound right at all. Not only that you were glorifying 2m damage from Solomon just a few lines earlier, and now Herc is doing just about the same.

But also, just what kind of values does Over Limit offer? Since right now, I can't even find those from DMM wiki. Not Herc's Page or the MP page lists anything... it does seem to stack, but still calling doubt on that. Something like that might happen if you ran the Bow for example, and you wouldn't do that, would you?

This is the part where you say double buffed P2W Eidolons and that you're using the Bow for memes. Outside of a situation like that, it's still hard to see Overlimit out-do PF. Depends on the kind of values it has.



I mean, I'd just love to see more variety in Soul choices. But unfortunately, it's ultimately a game of maths, and the devs have made a couple of choices WAY too good to be true.

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Well good luck getting that early on. Remember HSP? Shingen's still only accessible to vets for a good bit.

Basically... while Shingen or Herc is the go to soul for us vets... you still gotta remember that for players before that stage, new metas surrounding MEXs for other souls are still possible.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

People use Shingen and Herc as end game options, people who aren't strong enough have to opt in for other things. You use Joan or Mordred as a newbie, you use D'art on maybe some other situations that calls for it, --

While true, this brings forth the next question: how accessible is MP to new players?

If it's like candy, then sure. Player progression will probably still stick to Mordred -> (Joan ->) meta (as in Shingen/Herc), but they can pick up new skills along the way... IF MP is easy to come by. And if the skills are better than the passive upgrades. And how much passive upgrades is 15 MP? Like 45% stats? That's a lot for a new player...

Originally Posted by Cobblemaniac

Pretty convenient for still getting your fast PF options in hrag raids where getting MVP significantly reduces your grind.

Does it? How does the drop system work?

Since at least for Ult Disasters, really the only that matters is that you're hosting. Whether or not get the extra Fragments... doesn't really even matter, thanks to the Shop system handicapping your purchases so badly. Even if the drop system is the same, maybe it'll matter more for the (true) Ragnaroks since I believe they require a hefty amount of Regalia to spawn, which makes them a massive chore to host in mass.

Depending on how much one uses any of the other soul lines, as that decision point dictates things moreso than the ex skills themselves. The new ex skills are fine stuff to consider in a debuff resistant context (or, one in which your kamihime take care of all your debuff needs) once you've already committed to such and such soul.

Arthur (presumably you're Shingen-less if you're using Arthur): 20% chance of +20% crit damage for 2 turns is kind of weak, but it buffs all participants (exactly like how Arthur's atk buff targets all participants). Granted, it'll take coordination to get the most out of this in a raid/union fight. Alternatively, you're using Gawain for Ambush and want the crit buff for whatever reason (possibly being someone else's crit buff slave).
As for the self-only 40-50% vigor buff... ehhhh.

Joan (you've decided to commit your soul to defense): the single ally 100% damage cut on a 6 turn cooldown can be nice if you're looking for that ol' cover/invincibility combo to deal with random targeting overdrives. If you want that combo in one unit, use the ex with Roland. Olivier already offered a self only invincibility skill, but it's on a 8 turn cooldown. The new ex being 6 turns lines up with Roland's cover.
As for the stacking 4% def buff every 2 turns for up to 30 turns? Yea, that's long duration content only. I can come up with some uses for it for my own situation, but it's rather niche/specific to certain events.

Andromeda line (if you really want your soul to be a healer with maiden's prayer/chaos magic/res access): party-wide debuff block on... 8 turn cooldown? Very encounter specific. I don't think this would be used much outside of Medusa reprint.
Single ally endure buff on 8 turn cooldown? You can make a knock-off version of the cover/invincibility combo with that... if you're opting for the Andromeda line over the Joan line for whatever reason. But hey, if you've already committed to this soul line, it's an option.

Solomon line (why?... oh right, you want to do 0 turn stuff): Some big ability performance buff? Guess in case you're bringing in a nuke heavy party for those 0 turn shenanigans.
Self-only ability refresh? You're relying on yourself for said 0 turn shenanigans.

Siegfried (uhh, someone help me out here with what specific plans call for the Siegfried line): Self-only guaranteed double attacks for 3 turns every 6 turns? DPS-wise it should lose out to using Arthur's 3x-4x nuke every 6 turns (until said nuke rams into its 300k damage cap), but you do get the burst gauge buildup instead. Ehh, if I had plans for Siegfried, I'd probably use the other ex more than this one?
Party-wide soft damage cap buff. Well then. Presumably you're so strong, you're desperate for this sort of thing. That does not describe most of us.

Mordred (more for the lower power teams and/or for more conservative play; also, likely not to be used in debuff-resistant content): 6 turn cooldown orb eraser? It fits what you're trying to do if you're opting for Mordred in the first place. Fine option if I'm not going for Chaos Magic in the particular encounter. A-frame def debuff presumably taken care of by a hime.
Nuke based on # of debuffs applied? And no numbers given for the scaling yet? Bah, can't really comment on that beside the relatively high damage cap (700k?).

D'art: Eh, basically what you said. Mammon-like nuke's something nice when your ex slot choice comes down to 'damage'. And I skipped Snatch EX cause nobody cares about a Snatch version 4, right?

Hercules (when you still want the Herc axe def debuff and/or the one man army awesomeness): self only atk/damage cap stacking buff? Ehh.... does the cap stacking apply to full break?
A nuke that does 5% of current HP every 7 turns with a cap of 600k? You need an enemy with at least 12 million HP remaining to keep hitting that cap. And you'll need an enemy with at least 6 million HP remaining to get at least 300k damage from this to beat Arthur's nuke. And who knows where Overdrive caps at if the enemy's raging. By raw HP count alone, you're looking at lv 90/lv 100 raid type stuff to have encounters durable enough for multiple uses of this nuke to be relevant. But I don't know how those work. So I don't know if a Herc user can last long enough to get off multiple uses.
Alternatively, for leechers who want to at least contribute a bit of 0 turn damage, this is an option.

Morgan (you have some specific plan requiring party-wide berserk): first ex is... you give an ally a 1 turn cover buff? Ok, ok, you can put together that cover/invincibility combo if your team composition somehow has someone with self-only invincibility but no way of providing cover. Or combo with interceptor.
And the other ex is... give an ally a 10% pursuit buff for 3 turns on a 6 turn cooldown. Pure dps-wise, this sucks for the most part. I have some other guesses, but the issue is, I don't fully understand pursuit. Does a pursuit attack generate burst? Then this could function as 3 extra attacks worth of burst gauge. Does a pursuit attack apply effects that a normal attack would?

Shingen (the meta default): Encouragement. It's the usual meta choice.
That said, the +25% burst streak buff? There's a use for that when you don't need encouragement as much and/or you hit so hard, +burst streak is one of those things you dig up to try to circumvent soft damage caps. Again, that's a power level that does not describe most of us.

MP is gotten through either continually gaining experience with a lv 20 soul (50k exp for 1 MP I think?) or through exchanging soul points/hero soul points.

As far as Shingen goes, hero soul points are time gated. So a new player must wait X time before unlocking her. In the meantime, in theory, you can grind your ass off for an arbitrary number of MP via exp, as long as you still have the half-elixirs/seeds to keep you going.