Thread: Kamihime General Discussion + Q&A

Just happened to got Sol recently, so I'm aiming at a Light Haggith staff (3 UE Axe, 5 Haggith staff, 1 phantom staff), so does it worth to replace 5 assaults with 5 vigors? (I already have MLB Fluffy)


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Originally Posted by Iseria Seaward

Just happened to got Sol recently, so I'm aiming at a Light Haggith staff (3 UE Axe, 5 Haggith staff, 1 phantom staff), so does it worth to replace 5 assaults with 5 vigors? (I already have MLB Fluffy)


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Wow, MLB fluffy with a light roster like that and still not a light main? Your other elements must be bonkers good!

Anyway, 5 Hagith staffs is actually sub-optimal from both a support and dmg perspective. If you have 3 UE Axes, you should have at least 3 UE staffs, and 3 UE plus 2 Hagith staffs gives you more dmg AND more ascension (at the cost of defender) regardless of HP level. The problem with Hagith staff is that its ascension level is not that high due to lack of FLB and its lack of assault makes its vigor much less attractive.

For non-Andro builds, 3 UE plus Yule Goat plus Herc axe for axe grid actually deals more dmg (probably use Sphinx hammers and Pheonix bows for the remaining slots for defender, you can consider using one Hagith staff as well if you are fairly confident that you can maintain high HP for bursts, but I wouldn't use more than one.) There's also going to be an axe from light Labyrinth, but it's not FLB-able and doesn't have defender, so worse than Yule Goat but a passable filler for when you're not using Herc.

If you have at least 2 Sphinx and 1 Nandi hammers, you can also wait for Nandi reprint and go hammer grid - 2 Sphinx, 2 Nandis and 1 Heryshaf from upcoming advent (that one doesn't have FLB and so it's just filler, but better than SR hammer at least.) That's actually a pretty hard hitting grid.

For non-f2p, if you have dupe Tish lances or Vishnu wheels, you should consider bricking them.

EDIT: oh and for staff grid, remember Andro's soul weapon is also a staff, you only need a 5th staff if you're not using Andro (but then why staff grid?) or you really need the ascension (if you're going pure support or AAB-ing, you may want to consider using Hagith as main to scale up both ascension and defender.)

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

MVP-ing noticeably boosts the chances of a weapon dropping, but still rare.

I don't really believe this. It seems to give you a second slot for a weapon drop, which you will pretty much fail all the time.

Is double the chance better? Hell yes it is. Is double times nothing impressive? Hell no.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

-- For light it's pretty easy: 30% DATA from tiara set, another 30%-ish from fluffy, 20%-ish from Mike DA buff and you're at 80%-ish already. --

... and even with Awakened base 15%, you're still not at 100%, despite using a... what is Fluffy's uptime, 2/10? So Avalanche is still stronger than Barrage (during those few turns, even). And even if you go above 100%, the drop in burst generation is extremely small.

The entire "Double+ is bad" meme really, really, REALLY needs to die. Seriously. Let's end it.

While technically possible (for example, Tish can make you hit 100% combo after which Double+ is effectively Triple-), I do not see a realistic team where Double+ would actually hurt you. That would require running multiple Tish or Brahma style characters while still maintaining a functional team. While I have no idea what kind of Hime we're getting in the future, I don't see it happening.

So really, all you're doing is confusing a new person to the game with needlessly unrealistic and niche scenarios.
But yes, the Bow is awful since it doesn't have Assault.

Originally Posted by Iseria Seaward

Just happened to got Sol recently, so I'm aiming at a Light Haggith staff (3 UE Axe, 5 Haggith staff, 1 phantom staff), so does it worth to replace 5 assaults with 5 vigors? (I already have MLB Fluffy)

Even at full HP, your Assault*Vigor would be 2,368 (which drops down to 1,924 at 83% HP, so basically when something glances at you). 9x FLB Assault weapons (not even Assault++, but Assault) is 2,35 modifier. You're basically asking if it's smart to replace reliable Assault with unreliable Vigor. What do you think?

Since I doubt that you have a full FLB Grid though, it is difficult to say what is the "correct" (and by that I mean realistic) Grid for you, though.

But as for Vigor, unless you're fighting content which simply CANNOT hurt you (see: previous Skill Checker-kun), Vigor is something that you only splash into your Grid, as a yet another modifier it can be hugely helpful. It is NOT something you center your Grid around. This makes Assault/Vigor weapons VERY impressive, but Vigor-only Grids really just make your Grid unreliable.

Originally Posted by Slashley

I don't really believe this. It seems to give you a second slot for a weapon drop, which you will pretty much fail all the time.

This is just from my experience, and arguably not a big enough sample and I don't keep a record of every time I MVP a raid, but I have farmed roughly 1000 dark and 1000 thunder globes at this point, I MVP Aratron about quarter of the time-ish, and MVP Phul around 10% or less and have gotten over 20+ Aratron weapon drops (I stopped counting) compared to 10-11 Phul weapon drops.

Also, I am not making any value judgment as to whether it's worth MVP-racing, since usually it's not even a choice anyway. If someone stronger than you and joined earlier than you manuals in a raid, you've basically lost MVP (or if you're on AAB, you're not racing anyway.)

and even with Awakened base 15%, you're still not at 100%, despite using a... what is Fluffy's uptime, 2/10?

You can get up to 10% TA and 15% DA from accessories on top of tiara set effects. That easily gets you to GDATA even for non-AW himes.

As for fluffy uptime, the long CD often doesn't matter in dummy and tower, which is typically when GDATA matters the most. For example, if you were were trying to use the 'meta' light build for the previous dummy, it actually is important to make sure you don't have too much DA on Arty (in fact, ideally you should have no DA on her to minimize the expected number of retries if I'm not mistaken; full disclosure, I didn't run that build myself.)

So really, all you're doing is confusing a new person to the game with needlessly unrealistic and niche scenarios.

Well, this is just a personal bias, 'cos I prefer detailed answers myself that highlights exceptions. And honestly, I'm not sure why this is unrealistic when my examples use commonly available tools... Fluffy support shouldn't be that hard to come by for light mains; tiara sets should be standard by the time you're thinking about optimizing around exceed; I listed not one but four himes that can easily get you into a GDATA situation... I concede that its application is niche.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

You can get up to 10% TA and 15% DA from accessories on top of tiara set effects. That easily gets you to GDATA even for non-AW himes.

Ah yes, having 13 out of 15 slots filled with TA and DA sounds extremely realistic.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

-- For example, if you were were trying to use the 'meta' light build for the previous dummy, it actually is important to make sure you don't have too much DA on Arty (in fact, ideally you should have no DA on her to minimize the expected number of retries if I'm not mistaken; full disclosure, I didn't run that build myself.)

Why don't you run the maths and tell us exactly how much does this extra Double+ hurt that build?

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Well, this is just a personal bias, 'cos I prefer detailed answers myself that highlights exceptions.

Well, your "highlight for an EXCEPTION" sure looks a lot like it is something that should always be considered, rather than just a footnote. Something that has no effect for 99.9999999999999999999% of the playerbase shouldn't so prominent in the post.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

And honestly, I'm not sure why this is unrealistic when my examples use commonly available tools... Fluffy support shouldn't be that hard to come by for light mains; tiara sets should be standard by the time you're thinking about optimizing around exceed; I listed not one but four himes that can easily get you into a GDATA situation... I concede that its application is niche.

Oh really. So what you're saying is that Tish-Iris-Vishnu-Michael is a viable team?
I mean it might be, but fucking anything with Iris and Michael is great. Fuck you, Light mains! Fuck you and your extremely op Hime!

Even if so, Double+ will literally only hurt your team during extremely few turns, and extremely little during those turns even. Why on earth would you then claim that Avalanche can be worse than Barrage?

Originally Posted by Slashley

Ah yes, having 13 out of 15 slots filled with TA and DA sounds extremely realistic.

I know we disagree on accessory priorities, but yes, some of us do in fact have 10 or so DATA effects on our accessories on multiple himes.

Why don't you run the maths and tell us exactly how much does this extra Double+ hurt that build?

Depends on number and size of avalanche weapons (or even worse, rush weapons) but here's one scenario (can't be sure DATA numbers are accurate since it's hard to test, but these are the best numbers I can find):

Tish TA 50%, fluffy DATA 15%/15%, SSR base DATA 8%/3%, accessory TA 10% (no tiara set 'cos you need earrings for that particular build to work) and you're already at GDATA - 23%/78%. Arty needs to TA not DA for that build, so she has 77.2% chance of succeeding. If you add a slotted DA accessory of 5% 'cos the other two effects are good, that drops to 73.6% (in the interest of keeping it realistic, I did not use an avalanche weapon since only Arty's gun has that, and nobody uses that gun unless they have no choice.) Yes, it's a small drop, but if you're going to ignore everything in this game that only has a few percent difference, then you would also ignore:

• All accessory effects - except set effects, they're all small individually
• LB-ing and lvl-ing eidolons - typically only a few hundred stats per LB, that makes 1% difference or less for most ppl
• +99 weapons and eidos
• FLB event weapons that are already dual skill - usually just adds a few hundred stats and 5% assault/defender which only makes a few % difference in dmg/hp unless your grid is really bad

There're probably other things I can't think of right now, but the point is, you can choose not to optimize around certain parameters if you think it's too much trouble, but if you don't optimize around ANY small things, they can add up quickly.

Well, your "highlight for an EXCEPTION" sure looks a lot like it is something that should always be considered, rather than just a footnote. Something that has no effect for 99.9999999999999999999% of the playerbase shouldn't so prominent in the post.

Please reread my post. This is what I wrote AFTER I've already talked about why it's not a good source of direct dmg:

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

In fact, avalanche can sometimes be worse than barrage - for GDATA builds, you want more TA not more DA as the DA will crowd out the TA from normalization.

Btw, this has wider applications than just avalanche weapons, namely how you should distribute grails/rings during UE.

Oh really. So what you're saying is that Tish-Iris-Vishnu-Michael is a viable team?

-.- I actually started writing a short paragraph summarizing how each of those himes when used individually gets you into GDATA situation that matters, but I don't think it's helpful. The key point is that you want to minimize the chance of your burst bottleneck from delaying your FB.

Even if so, Double+ will literally only hurt your team during extremely few turns, and extremely little during those turns even. Why on earth would you then claim that Avalanche can be worse than Barrage?

The point I wanted to make was that as a direct source of dmg, rush/barrage/avalanche all pales in comparison to other weapon skills. It can potentially be useful as a source of BG gain. However, rush and rush part of avalanche can hurt you when you stack on up to GDATA. You usually only bother stacking up to GDATA on the bottleneck hime, which is exactly where you need BG the most - yeah, it helps everyone else not at GDATA, but it only contributes tiny natk dmg there, but doesn't change your burst timing. Whereas delaying your FB can have big dmg implications.

The original question asked why avalanche isn't a great weapon skill, I think pointing out situations where it actually hurts instead of helps is relevant since you expect more of anything to always be helpful, even if the effect is tiny (e.g. elaborate never hurts your dmg output even though it sucks 99% of the time.)

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

-- Yes, it's a small drop, but if you're going to ignore everything in this game that only has a few percent difference, then you would also ignore:

• All accessory effects - except set effects, they're all small individually
• LB-ing and lvl-ing eidolons - typically only a few hundred stats per LB, that makes 1% difference or less for most ppl
• +99 weapons and eidos
• FLB event weapons that are already dual skill - usually just adds a few hundred stats and 5% assault/defender which only makes a few % difference in dmg/hp unless your grid is really bad

There're probably other things I can't think of right now, but the point is, you can choose not to optimize around certain parameters if you think it's too much trouble, but if you don't optimize around ANY small things, they can add up quickly.

Pulling more than a little bit of hairs here.

But yes, most of those are really useless. Really, the only useful Enigma from Accessories is Def - this is because 99.1% of the game's content is just a AAB slog, where Def has by far the most impact. Sure you can make the claim that "but that 0.9% is the content that matters!!!" if you want, but really now? And yes, LBing and +99ing has a miniscule impact in your damage in endgame where stats are extremely abundant, but it sure as hell is useful for base HP.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

Btw, this has wider applications than just avalanche weapons, namely how you should distribute grails/rings during UE.

Yes, because everyone who intends to accomplish literally anything in UE totally doesn't just Paratrain with multiple windows, where you simply don't have the time to worry about FBing. You take your turns and if you have extra time you enable Burst in one window. Ain't nobody got time to worry about guaranteed combo builds in that.

Originally Posted by dreamlitz

The original question asked why avalanche isn't a great weapon skill, I think pointing out situations where it actually hurts instead of helps is relevant since you expect more of anything to always be helpful, even if the effect is tiny (e.g. elaborate never hurts your dmg output even though it sucks 99% of the time.)

I would rather like to say that a simple answer to a newer player (well, kind of) who was simply looking for the basics will gain absolutely nothing except harm from such an answer.

Don't you think that a simple "Because it's not Assault" would've done the same purpose, without any trouble? You can go into details and niches if they want to know more.

Need help deciding on medea wind or dark SW...

After burning all my resources on Nefer banned and failed to get her, also aiming for kali glaive (didnt get her as well), i am not too sure on making dark glaive grid anymore.

Current dark eido n hime: (Anubis), Susanoo AW, Thanatos, Chernobog, Nepthys, Agilarept.

Current wind eido n hime: (Sleipnir), Seth, Hastur, Cybele U, Odin, Isis, Minerva.

Thank you guys for all your discussions and clarifications

Yukarichan, ur dark team seems better than wind one to me

I made an account not long after the game launched on nutaku a while back and picked up where I left off a few weeks ago. Things were going swimmingly until I decided to dig a little deeper into the game mechanics, and after reading some of this thread and information on the wiki it turned out that every decision I ever made on that account was terrible and I needed to just start over. I started rerolling without really setting a target, and in the meantime I looked through the discord and this forum a bit to see what was generally considered a top-tier start. There's a number of comments about 100%/140% Eidolons being a good starting point, but if there's been a recent discussion on which ones are best and what himes to try and pair them with, I've missed it somewhere. Since I still don't understand the mid-to-late game well enough to identify the "core" himes on my own, I was hoping to get some feedback on my progress and help setting a target from you experts.

So far I have one 140% roll and three 100% rolls with a element-matching hime:

Nidhoggr with no matching SSR himes.

Anubis + Amon Unleashed

Belial + Emperor of Hell Beelzebub

Kirin + Nuwa

I'm working from home for the forseeable future due to the virus outbreak, so my current plan was to keep rolling for a 140% plus a "core" hime of the matching element.

1. Of the four primary elements with 140% eidolons, are any of them substantially better or worse than the others?

2. I am currently under the impression that a Managarmr + Core SSR Light hime roll would be almost as good (but not quite) as a 140% + Core matching SSR roll, is this true?

3. I also heard that dark is (in general) the weakest element at the moment and that even with a core SSR to match, Anubis probably isn't optimal; is this also true, or should I go with my Amon[U]/Anubis roll?

4. I am struggling to determine which himes are "core" for the primary elements. I know some of the "best of the best" from reading through this thread and recent discord conversations, but beyond the obvious Michael/Cu Chulainn, how do I go about determining if a "hundo" with a matching element SSR hime is good enough to keep?

Any thoughts appreciated!