Thread: What Soul to Unlock?

Originally Posted by fucka

Stay to the facts, don' act like 3 years old. This is a game for adult.

I speak of her strength, her weakness and how is ability up scales with her ability and damage, if you don't like her, then you don't need to unlock her. If your soul points are overflowing, you will unlock her anyway.

Im not arguing that "ability up" is worthless. I'm arguing that you provide wrong information: the only thing that Solomon gives to those SSR hime with multihit abilities that you speak of, is 8% ability up, and ONLY if devs "fix" assist abilities for souls (which they dont seem to care too much about, so basically right now Solomon provides literary no benefit for anyone except herself). Everything else (Roze's Ex, eidolons active/passives) can be stacked on any other soul and the result will be the same, minus 8% ability up, but instead you will get another passive as well as 3 useful abilities. What im trying to say, is that i can't see a single situation, in which Solomon would be more desirable than literary ANY other Soul. Yes, late game, when ill get 99999 Soul P i will prob unlock her, and lvl her up to 20, just to get my H-Scene and 50 jewels, but i seriously cant imagine a situation in which i would be like "man, if only i had Solomon, i wouldve beat this boss/beat this boss faster/survived this attack"

Originally Posted by felix

the only thing that Solomon gives to those SSR hime with multihit abilities that you speak of, is 8% ability up, and ONLY if devs "fix" assist abilities for souls (which they dont seem to care too much about, so basically right now Solomon provides literary no benefit for anyone except herself).

Let me rephrase my current understanding of this to avoid propagating more speculation: I see no evidence that assist abilities affect the entire team (DMM or Nutaku version). That is not evidence that they DON'T. 8% is such a small buff, and the random modifiers on ability damage are so large (not to mention all the potential confounding variables), that reliably spotting such a small effect statistically is actually pretty difficult and would require some dedicated data collection. I'm not so interested in this that I'd leap to do such a study--not when the only basis for an effect is hearsay.

It's sort of like one person saying, "5 Stacks or more of Snatch decrease damage dealt by mobs by 1%!" There's no basis for such a claim, but I can't disprove it without an inordinate amount of effort. Does that mean we should believe it? No!

Originally Posted by sanahtlig

Let me rephrase my current understanding of this to avoid propagating more speculation: I see no evidence that assist abilities affect the entire team (DMM or Nutaku version). That is not evidence that they DON'T. 8% is such a small buff, and the random modifiers on ability damage are so large (not to mention all the potential confounding variables), that reliably spotting such a small effect statistically is actually pretty difficult and would require some dedicated data collection. I'm not so interested in this that I'd leap to do such a study--not when the only basis for an effect is hearsay.

It's sort of like one person saying, "5 Stacks or more of Snatch decrease damage dealt by mobs by 1%!" There's no basis for such a claim, but I can't disprove it without an inordinate amount of effort. Does that mean we should believe it? No!

Generally Assist skills buff the whole group. In case of rosenkreuz/solomon, they only buff themselves.

The main damage ability of solomon is solomonring. It does only 0.80-0.85x dmg each hit. This small multiplier seems to be weak at early-mid game, but benefits strongly from ability up in the late-game, once people have significant boost from attk up and element up.

Damage increase on paper
solomonring: 8% / 0.80 = 10%
an ability with damage multiplier 5x, 8% / 5 = 1.6%


For comparison, what does 20% attk up buff means, if +100% attk up and +80% element up are reached? (max. possible 160% and 200%+ atm)

weapon x element x ability x hits
(1+100%) x (1+80%) x 0.80 x 6 = 17.28 ( solomon ring no other buff)
(1+100%) x (1+80%) x 5 x 1 = 18 (shiva's single nuke no other buff, higher than solomonring )

20% attk up buff:
(1+100%+20%) x (1+80%) x 0.80 x 6 = 19.008 ---> about 10% real increase (solomon ring)
(1+100%+20%) x (1+80%) x 5 = 19.8 ---> about 10% real increase (shiva's nuke)

8% ability up
(1+100%) x (1+80%) x (0.80+8%) x 6 = 19.008 ---> about 10% real increase too, wonder?!
Solomonring gains 10% real damage increase with only 8% ability up, and that 8% is equal to 20% attk up buff. (big buff of Arthur for instance)

but what about a standard 1hit ability?
(1+100%) x (1+80%) x (5+8%) = 18.288 ---> only 1.6% real increase to non-buff state...

A strong single hit ability benefits less from that 8% ability up. 5x damage is almost best for this kind of ability, but it gets topped by solomonring with only 8% ability up. 18.288 < 19.008.

The math doesn't consider type advantages. Solomonring has all elements, only 1 of 6 hits can hit weakness. in case of type advantage, single element is still better.
The math only shows, how good ability up is scaled with abilities such as solomonring in endgame.




This game is balanced in Endgame content. The devs know, what they do.

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Originally Posted by sanahtlig

You know that someone would take up the challenge just to show they could, even if it was non-optimal. That wouldn't actually prove anything.

and I think you and felix are smart enough to understand the simple math , hm, felix, maybe not...
If you think anything is illogical, I'm all ears.

Originally Posted by fucka

don' act like 3 years old. This is a game for adult.

Originally Posted by fucka

smart enough to understand the simple math , hm, felix, maybe not...

hm, irony much?

Originally Posted by felix

hm, irony much?

Oh, I'm sorry, Irony off.

I really believe, you have stolen your daddy's credit card and ID for playing game like this.
Irony on, again.

Originally Posted by fucka

I really believe, you have stolen your daddy's credit card and ID for playing game like this.

Ooooh, it burns sooo goood...
You gonna add some steam? I prefer saunas.

Originally Posted by felix

Ooooh, it burns sooo goood...
You gonna add some steam? I prefer saunas.

What about return to school and learn a bit low-class math, so you could understand post #33 at least, then we keep talking? Or are you brain damaged by too "much" steam?

Originally Posted by fucka

Generally Assist skills buff the whole group. In case of rosenkreuz/solomon, they only buff themselves.

*Long lecture about Solomon's Ring*

I don't actually care all that much about Solomon's Ring, though the explanation about how ability damage modifiers affect skills with damage multipliers was useful. As usual, the game mechanics are needlessly unintuitive, and it's left to players to figure out how they actually work. But my takeaway from this isn't that ability up modifiers are good--it's that other modifiers scale terribly. In the end, a good modifier becoming less good over time doesn't make a bad modifier good. It's still bad; it's just that the alternatives are now worse. But I've also been saying for a while now that temporary character attack buffs are overrated.

But I'm more interested in where this assumption comes from that assist skills buff the whole group. Where's the evidence / what's the source for this?

Originally Posted by sanahtlig

I don't actually care all that much about Solomon's Ring, though the explanation about how ability damage modifiers affect skills with damage multipliers was useful. As usual, the game mechanics are needlessly unintuitive, and it's left to players to figure out how they actually work. But my takeaway from this isn't that ability up modifiers are good--it's that other modifiers scale terribly. In the end, a good modifier becoming less good over time doesn't make a bad modifier good. It's still bad; it's just that the alternatives are now worse. But I've also been saying for a while now that temporary character attack buffs are overrated.

But I'm more interested in where this assumption comes from that assist skills buff the whole group. Where's the evidence / what's the source for this?

Solomon's ring is an example for its kind. Susanoo's first ability hits 8x times, Brahma's first hits 8x times too. Soul is free, SSR kamis...only with luck.

Basically, all true effects of buffs are easily to calculate. Attk buff % / (1+weapon buff%) = real %,
so 20% attk buff and 100% weapon assault buff give 20% / 2 = 10%. If 160%, then 20% / 2.6 = 7.6%

For ability buff, you need to take the ability damage multiplier as divisor.
20% ability up / ability damage multiplier = real %, solomon's ring gets less than 1. It's weak actually and it doesn't benefit much from type advantage. Only later, when other buffs get their Diminishing Return, this ability will shine.

Assist ability is weird. As far as I read, All soul's assists only buff themselves and kami's assist applies to the whole group, when active (not in the sub slot) I got the information from chinese forum, based on their own calculation.

The real % for description "small, middle and big" are all different, big could mean 20% or 30%... DMM also often changes parameters and there are cap for the damage, that a kami/soul can deal with their ability... Even some SRs can do incredible damage under certain circumstance, their potential is limited, because they will hit their cap. The cap for SSR is much higher than SR.

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Originally Posted by felix

yeah, but after reading your detailed explanation in post #28, i wrote post #30, which you apparently didn't bother to read, since that's where I admit, that solomonring is not as shitty as i gave it credit



That's quite presumptuous. Do you know me? Are you my calculus teacher? Just because i cant be bothered to do math in this game, it isn't my strength? Great logic there.



Because your responses entertain me.



Ooooh, you got me there, this sentence makes as much sense as your logic, and that's quite an achievement.

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I'm pretty sure it comes from tutorial popup when you enter a menu for the first time (i think it was a tutorial on 1st opening of "edit" menu). I might be wrong here, but i believe it says there that assist skills do affect whole group. gona create new account to double check.
No, nevermind, it doesnt say anything about assist skills.

You are entertaining me too. Someone got beaten by elementary school's math. Words are inaccurate, figure is exact,
so figure >>> mememememememememememe, mememememmeememe, memememememememe.
There is good reason, why you intended to avoid the post #33 and return to those shit talk without any sense. I offer you the chance to contribute some constructive information, but it seems you can nothing else than shit talking.

So keep entertaining yourself , you really need it. Topic closed.

Originally Posted by fucka

There is good reason, why you intended to avoid the post #33

Are you serious? Avoid post? Ok, lets take a look at post #33... Hmmm... Your math is correct! Great job! What else do you want to hear? I already stated in the post before yours that Solomon can do dmg with her skill, so your entire post was unnecessary (you proved a point to which i already agreed... Let me give you an example

- 5*5=25
- Ok, i agree.
- No, look at this detailed explanation about why 5*5=25...
- Relax, i said i agree with you.
- No, you dont, i need to prove to you even further, that 5*5 is indeed = 25...

And that's the reason why i "avoided" it: there's nothing to say about it. Oh, i get it: you want me to praise you like our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ for posting some math calculations? Well sorry, I'm an atheist and don't praise no gods.

P.S. You were the one to start shittalking...

Originally Posted by fucka

Can't you read?! .

And you were the one to return to shittalking...

Originally Posted by fucka

I think you and felix are smart enough to understand the simple math , hm, felix, maybe not...

So joke's on you, smartass.