[Merry Christmas] 5+ Star Gacha Ticket Plus Thread

[IvanLedah21]

The problem is there is no SINGULAR definition for "Pay to Win" because it's subjective.

Some games like World of Tanks as mentioned by Myrdin there's a clear advantage to paying, to the point it's very difficult for F2Ps to compete. Most would agree these are P2W.

Most people would also agree purely cosmetic effects like Myrdin's description of LoL (or 99% of SWTOR's Cartel Market, etc.) do not constitute P2W since these have no gameplay effects.

However, in cases like FKG, there are two issues:
1) Convenience - Everything you buy in FKG could be obtained with sufficient gaming time. Does this constitute P2W, since you get it faster? Or does it not, since you can get it without paying, it just takes time?
2) There is no PVP system, therefore, how do you "win"? Is it even POSSIBLE to "P2W" if there is no competition in-game (beyond players being like "well I completed Ultimate Map 79 and you struggle with Moderate 12" which exists in EVERY GAME IN EXISTENCE to some extent)?

Since it is agreed that 5/6*s are not REQUIRED to beat maps in FKG, paying is not strictly required to win (even ignoring the fact you do get occasional gacha chances and event 5*s). Therefore, the two above factors, and how you view them, determine whether this game, and others like it, are "P2W" or not.

Zandel clearly determines P2W to include the convenience factor, and that the lack of PVP is irrelevant. EAB clearly has the opposite stance on both factors. Is one "correct" and the other "incorrect"?

To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi:
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view"

[Eab1990]

I've already explained away the conveniences and lack of competition means the game is pay to waifu instead.

-You don't *have* to have a full set of rainbows or gacha golds.
-You don't *have* to max out your girls instantly.
-Having ~500k total power means nothing when you can clear most of the game with ~300k TP.
-None of the game's events (except for a really bad streak in gacha events like Monotropastrum) are so stamina-demanding that you must be level 100+ to hope to get a 5/4 event girl.

And once again, I already brought up how Aigis is much the same since most of the game's content can be done with all free units. Except free is highly subjective due to the sheer number of units given out vs. what's in the shrine, and it's obviously much more challenging, usually requires guide videos to avoid endless trial-and-error, and not having certain units can highly limit your freedom to improvise on the fly, should you screw up the timing of a map.

Aidoru and Zandel and whoever else don't want to see the distinction between the two, despite all arguments to the contrary.

[IvanLedah21]

Stam / raid boss refills can be bought with RL cash and they speed up the game to an amazing extent. With enough money you could clear the game content in under a week. While it's true that anyone can lvl their girls and complete the game given enough time and while it's true that given enough time you could (with enough luck) gain all the girls in the game as well. The fact that Money makes it faster is what I was refering too.

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And this is what Eab seems to miss, spending cash in FKG can give you more stam which translates into more girl levels hence more 'UMPF'.

Personally I don;t mind the P2W model they are using because it's really only for impatient people. For me i'll spend some dosh here and there on a few girls I like but for me it's about getting what I want not making the game easier / faster.

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FYI I never said anything about rainbows or gatcha golds. I was just pointing out to you that FKG is indeed a P2W game by definition. I actually find it strange that you have so much trouble being able to see the truth. Guessing based on your name, you are 26 years old and thus should easily be able to tell that if you pay money into this game you will gain an advantage over others (thus P2W).

Point 1: Stamina/Raid Point refills are widely considered among the worst ways to use FG outside of last day of an event to make sure your event girl is maxed out. Speed up the leveling? Nice, but not necessary. Clear the game content in under a week? Why would you want to PAY to clear a game in a week and then be bored? Considering early levels speed by, by the time you've spent 10 FGs on stamina refills, you could easily be sufficient levels to clear most content, perhaps needing strong helper squads to do certain ultimate maps. 10 FGs, 15 at worst, is hardly in the realm of having to pay.

Point 2: P2W =/= Catering to impatient people, it means catering to people willing to spend massive money to get ahead of others playing, presumably because it gives them a decisive edge. If for you, it's about getting what you want, not making it easier/faster, why are you so hung up on FKG being a P2W game? Why does it even matter to you? I recommend you go look up some of the "worst P2W games ever" lists out there. While Hearthstone is mentioned by some people (I'm bringing it up because the cards you can get by paying are obtainable eventually without paying, like FKG), do note it is almost entirely based on PVP content. In fact, every game on those lists (maybe a rare exception here and there) is heavily/entirely PVP, which FKG has NONE of. Many people I know, including on this board, would call a game P2W when you pay to get ahead of people YOU ARE DIRECTLY COMPETING WITH (Nutaku's Pero Pero Seduction and to a lesser extent Angelic Saga are much more viable targets for the P2W label).

Point 3: "Pay money into this game you will gain an advantage over others" ...Right. Advantage over others when the biggest form of "competition" is your Friends List TP ranking. And that means how much, exactly? If there's no competition between players, I can't understand why P2W would even come up. Pay For Convenience? Definitely. Pay to Waifu? Obviously. Pay for Roster Completion? Of course. Pay to Win? Not seeing it.

Again, it's a point-of-view matter in the end, but trying to tell someone that your definition is "right" and he's wrong (and implying that he's stupid for not telling you your POV is right in that last sentence when I pointed out an issue with it in Point 3) is not going to get you anywhere, especially since you seem to be in the minority here.

[Meister]

I just noticed I got the ticket so I rolled it... Got another Cattleya which im not complaining since it's a free draw. The only ironic thing for me is that I now have 2 rainbow which is of the same girl . I guess Cattleya really likes me then


Now struggling to decide whether to keep her or open the 2nd slot...

[Zandel]

I've already explained away the conveniences and lack of competition means the game is pay to waifu instead.

-You don't *have* to have a full set of rainbows or gacha golds.
-You don't *have* to max out your girls instantly.
-Having ~500k total power means nothing when you can clear most of the game with ~300k TP.
-None of the game's events (except for a really bad streak in gacha events like Monotropastrum) are so stamina-demanding that you must be level 100+ to hope to get a 5/4 event girl.

And once again, I already brought up how Aigis is much the same since most of the game's content can be done with all free units. Except free is highly subjective due to the sheer number of units given out vs. what's in the shrine, and it's obviously much more challenging, usually requires guide videos to avoid endless trial-and-error, and not having certain units can highly limit your freedom to improvise on the fly, should you screw up the timing of a map.

Aidoru and Zandel and whoever else don't want to see the distinction between the two, despite all arguments to the contrary.

Just because you decide to make up a new term yourself does not mean it actually exists. 'Pay-to-Waifu' is just another way of saying Pay-to-Win no matter how stupid you want to be about it.

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Point 1: Stamina/Raid Point refills are widely considered among the worst ways to use FG outside of last day of an event to make sure your event girl is maxed out. Speed up the leveling? Nice, but not necessary. Clear the game content in under a week? Why would you want to PAY to clear a game in a week and then be bored? Considering early levels speed by, by the time you've spent 10 FGs on stamina refills, you could easily be sufficient levels to clear most content, perhaps needing strong helper squads to do certain ultimate maps. 10 FGs, 15 at worst, is hardly in the realm of having to pay.

Point 2: P2W =/= Catering to impatient people, it means catering to people willing to spend massive money to get ahead of others playing, presumably because it gives them a decisive edge. If for you, it's about getting what you want, not making it easier/faster, why are you so hung up on FKG being a P2W game? Why does it even matter to you? I recommend you go look up some of the "worst P2W games ever" lists out there. While Hearthstone is mentioned by some people (I'm bringing it up because the cards you can get by paying are obtainable eventually without paying, like FKG), do note it is almost entirely based on PVP content. In fact, every game on those lists (maybe a rare exception here and there) is heavily/entirely PVP, which FKG has NONE of. Many people I know, including on this board, would call a game P2W when you pay to get ahead of people YOU ARE DIRECTLY COMPETING WITH (Nutaku's Pero Pero Seduction and to a lesser extent Angelic Saga are much more viable targets for the P2W label).

Point 3: "Pay money into this game you will gain an advantage over others" ...Right. Advantage over others when the biggest form of "competition" is your Friends List TP ranking. And that means how much, exactly? If there's no competition between players, I can't understand why P2W would even come up. Pay For Convenience? Definitely. Pay to Waifu? Obviously. Pay for Roster Completion? Of course. Pay to Win? Not seeing it.

Again, it's a point-of-view matter in the end, but trying to tell someone that your definition is "right" and he's wrong (and implying that he's stupid for not telling you your POV is right in that last sentence when I pointed out an issue with it in Point 3) is not going to get you anywhere, especially since you seem to be in the minority here.

Point 1: Never said it was a good idea just pointing out that it is possible.
Point 2: PvP or not you can get ahead of others with cash that by definition is Pay-to-Win.
Point 3: for first half see above response, for second part as I stated with Eab all those terms are just another way of saying Pay-to-Win.

Also I have not said that Pay-to-Win is a bad thing. Just stating the truth of the situation that this game is pay-to-win no matter how you want to argue otherwise. I find it strange that so many people take offence to it being that way, like pay to win is always a bad thing. When done correctly it's not, WoT is a good example for instance.

[Drip]

Just because you decide to make up a new term yourself does not mean it actually exists. 'Pay-to-Waifu' is just another way of saying Pay-to-Win no matter how stupid you want to be about it.

I've seen this debate before in several places. https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comm...us_pay_to_win/ is a good example of one.
Some people will always call it Pay2Win, no matter what, while to others, there are notable distinctions.

It's really the same thing as the term RPG. I still refuse to call any game from the Diablo series an RPG, they're mere hack and slash games making use of some mechanics commonly found in RPGs even though those mechanics are not qualifications for the RPG genre. Ofcourse, there's also people who are pretty passionate at categorizing Diablo III as an RPG.

[IvanLedah21]

I've seen this debate before in several places. https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comm...us_pay_to_win/ is a good example of one.
Some people will always call it Pay2Win, no matter what, while to others, there are notable distinctions.

It's really the same thing as the term RPG. I still refuse to call any game from the Diablo series an RPG, they're mere hack and slash games making use of some mechanics commonly found in RPGs even though those mechanics are not qualifications for the RPG genre. Ofcourse, there's also people who are pretty passionate at categorizing Diablo III as an RPG.

Good analogy. The fact is that in this case, similar to your example, Zandel considers collecting waifus to be "winning" (considering that's one of the core highlights of the game, I can understand that), thus if that's the perspective, the game is indeed "Pay to Win". Competition is not required in this definition.

Side Note: How about the Mass Effect series? IMO it's pretty much a shooter with some RPG elements, and not a true RPG (though it has decidedly more story freedom as well than the linear Diablo series)

[Drip]

Good analogy. The fact is that in this case, similar to your example, Zandel considers collecting waifus to be "winning" (considering that's one of the core highlights of the game, I can understand that), thus if that's the perspective, the game is indeed "Pay to Win". Competition is not required in this definition.

Side Note: How about the Mass Effect series? IMO it's pretty much a shooter with some RPG elements, and not a true RPG (though it has decidedly more story freedom as well than the linear Diablo series)

While the storyline is pretty linear (just some small variations really), it does have the very important component of building your characters' personality. Which makes the Mass Effect series really a borderline case to me. It being a shooter is more of a game mechanics thing to me. The limited factor is mainly the few avenues available to accomplish goals. You have to clear event A, or event B simply won't happen, even though the causes of the two events are not directly related.

I'm looking forward to Andromeda though, the developers want to make that game a bit less linear and a little more open world again, making me hope they're going to include some timed events (even if that might cause some events to be mutually exclusive to the player because they happen at the same moment) to make the setting feel even more alive, and bring it yet closer to actual role playing.

[Eab1990]

Just because you decide to make up a new term yourself does not mean it actually exists. 'Pay-to-Waifu' is just another way of saying Pay-to-Win no matter how stupid you want to be about it.

Just because you think I'm the only one who uses the term doesn't make it true.

[nazrin992]

Good analogy. The fact is that in this case, similar to your example, Zandel considers collecting waifus to be "winning" (considering that's one of the core highlights of the game, I can understand that), thus if that's the perspective, the game is indeed "Pay to Win". Competition is not required in this definition.

This really makes sense for this game. Indeed, owning more waifus is the road at winning FKG. You are winning by having more waifus than other people and by completing the album before next event got released, you won FKG at the moment!

Man, this reminds me of the time when Pokemon was all about catching them all, only to get a digital certificate at the end :| I will never do another pointless task ever again.